Public Safety Committee on Nov. 18th, 2020

[John Paul]

They are proper training, proper certification of staff and proper governance regimes led by indigenous people in partnership with governments, because it requires that collective collaboration to find areas of focus that would improve policing and the outcomes relative to policing.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Who should be the parties involved in assuring that this gets done well?

[John Paul]

I think all the parties can be involved. The issue in the past was that either the federal or provincial government dictated how it was going to be played. Unless we're equal partners, the outcome will never be a success. That's a real concern that I have. If you control the way it is going to be designed and delivered and we're not part of it, then the outcome won't work for those communities.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

What do you mean by “civilian oversight”? Can you elaborate a bit on that?

[John Paul]

It's police not providing oversight to police.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

That's very interesting.

[John Paul]

Yes. I know.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Can you clarify that point, please?

[John Paul]

Well, I think there are enough educated people, indigenous people, in the country who could provide insights to people providing policing services that would not be the same as the rigid training that police are accustomed to. It at least would allow more flexibility in how things actually get implemented on the ground.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

That means you would suggest a body that would be monitoring the police, that is not policing the police.

[John Paul]

Yes.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

That's interesting.

I have no further questions.

[Jocelyn Formsma]

Mr. Chair, would I be able to respond to that question, if there is time?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Absolutely. You have about 45 seconds. Go for it.

[Jocelyn Formsma]

Thank you. I will try to be within that 45 seconds.

In the report we mentioned, we looked at a number of reports that made specific recommendations on policing. For the last 50 years, recommendations around training have been made. The issue hasn't been the training; the issue has been the implementation and the accountability. I would certainly support what Mr. Paul is recommending. The accountability piece—the enforcement, if you will—of those recommendations for law enforcement is the real issue that we need to address collectively.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Iacono.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for five minutes,

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for being here.

Before asking my question, I want to make sure that Mr. Sheppard has access to the French interpretation, since my question will be for him.

You said that your organization often deals with local and regional police services, and that you have witnessed examples of systemic racism in the past.

Can you give us some examples?

What do you think the federal government should do to ensure that these sorts of situations do not happen in communities again?

[Christopher Sheppard]

I can give a couple of examples, actually, because, one, I'm an indigenous person who lives in Canada and has had interactions with the police. I also was the executive director of a large friendship centre that worked within a women's prison and within a youth correctional centre. We supported the young people and women who were interacting with those spaces. We also had tried to work with the local city police around our experiences and our community members' experiences. Also, in Saskatchewan, since I've been here, we work in anti-racism across a latitude of different areas.

I've had personal experience of the police being more worried about whether I was intoxicated after a car accident than the fact that my leg was broken. With my work, I watched an indigenous person being removed from a police vehicle and put on the snowbank outside my friendship centre in a blizzard, because I guess they thought it was a nice place to drop someone in the middle of the winter.

We've seen so many examples, whether they're individualized or not, that it becomes incredibly important for us to remind people that we have talked about it for a long time. We have recommended things for a long time. The number of times we've recommended implementing the royal commission recommendations from 30 years ago.... I think it's important to recognize that on top of those recommendations and behind those recommendations are individuals who have experienced intense systemic racism from a structure that was designed and used to enforce colonization throughout our history.

I've always tried to maintain hope that at some point we'll read recommendations and actually do them. However, it becomes increasingly challenging when you have things like the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which has entire sections on training and education.... I've talked to university presidents who said that in three generations you could retrain every mind in ever sector, but you don't.

I just want to remind people that behind my experience and other people's experiences are these reports. We've added to them and spoken to them and tried really hard to see their implementation, but we have yet to see it happen. We remain optimistic and hopeful to be a partner, but this is the lived experience of our people across the country every day in systems with so much power.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you for your testimony. It is quite moving to hear that. We know what's actually happening and we don't talk about it enough. Thank you for discussing it with us.

You said it so well, the colonial past is still too present. In your opening remarks, you talked about more education on culture, the past and history. I completely agree with you that we need to implement this.

In your view, what form must it take?

Should it be included directly in the training of police officers, whatever the police force?

Should there be more funding for officer training?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there. That's an important question, and possibly you could work it back into another answer.

With that, unfortunately, Mr. Harris.... It's not unfortunate that we're having Mr. Harris, but you have five minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm pleased to have these witnesses here today. I also was quite moved by the last presentation, but let me say also that I did get a sense of hope from all three of you that this is something that can be fixed, that there are things that actually can be done to change, in the case of the people you represent, the experience of interactions with police by indigenous people.

If that's wrong, tell me, but I am hearing signs of expectation that we may be able to make some recommendations that are useful.

Let me start by asking Mr. Paul about this. Your organization sent a letter to the Minister of Fisheries, along with a copy to Marc Miller, Minister of Indigenous Services, and Carolyn Bennett, Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, as well as all Atlantic MPs, back on September 22, in which you talk about the moderate livelihood dispute.

I'll read parts of two sentences.

The first says:

One of our communities is working to undertake a...moderate livelihood fishery under a cloud of racism and threats of violence to people, property damage and the destruction of traps and gear.

It continues, and then another sentence says:

Violence and conflict are not a solution and racism or the policy status quo is not a realistic path to a lasting solution.

That was almost a month before the situation that we've all seen on TV erupted in the destruction of the traps and threats of violence and violence. Was this intended to be a warning of any kind, or was that just a statement of fact?

[John Paul]

It was a warning, because it came from the context that in 1999 I was actually involved in the fishery after the Marshall decision, and I was subject to a lot of racism and a lot of criticism by fishery organizations and groups across Atlantic Canada that didn't want to believe that our right existed. We were under siege every day to deal with the violence.

At that time, one of the critical elements was that we told the fisher groups that the only way we would come to peace is at the wharves. I still believe that applies today. Unless we can make peace at the wharves, it's hard to avoid conflict or violence when people believe you shouldn't be there.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Would that condition of violence and threats have been known to the authorities, the police forces and the people responsible?

[John Paul]

Yes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

They would have been aware of that, you're saying.