Public Safety Committee on Nov. 18th, 2020

[Fo Niemi]

Thank you very much.

With the time I have, I'll be very short.

Data is about science. Data is about quantity and quality. If we support science, we need data to measure.

It's the same thing to deal with the COVID-19 infection and fatality rates. We need race-based data. We need race-based data in everything. Even the Viens commission in Quebec last year also recommended race-based data collection in dealing with indigenous people.

The Toronto Police Services Board, I believe, has developed a comprehensive, solid model of how to engage in race-based data collection, analysis and communication, and apply and translate that into the measurement of performance, quality and accountability. One way is to just look at the model of the Toronto Police Services Board. I believe a lot of things have been done. We don't need to reinvent the wheel.

We have to go back to the notion that without the data, we are not making sound, evidence-based public policy. Race-based data is important in working with indigenous people. As so many commissions have recommended, we need race-based data to deal with racialized people, along with any other demographic factors that we would deem relevant to better understand the impact of public policy and also to make sure that our public resources, our budgets, are well spent.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Niemi.

Perhaps I can lead off on the same question.

We've recently seen calls to defund the police or the RCMP. We understand that this does not equate to cancelling the police, but rather reviewing their funding and how it's being used, and also ensuring that we're investing in mental health services and social services in our communities.

What is your recommendation on this narrative, and what do you think needs to be done?

[Fo Niemi]

I don't think we should talk about defunding the police for the purpose of what you just mentioned. I think the term can be very loaded. We need to develop a very wise, strategic and cost-effective public policy approach to budget allocation, whether for policing or for any other social or even economic programs. We have to look at it.

I think the term “defunding” often is seen to be an attack on the police profession, on the police institution and on the police officers themselves. The vast majority of them, I believe, are committed to law and order, to serving and protecting the public.

We need to find a different approach, and even different terminology. I think we also have to ensure, as legislators and as government, that our budgets are well spent and spent in a way that responds to community needs.

If there is a gap in funding for mental health or homelessness, can we get the money elsewhere, for example? There are many other things. I think to focus only on the police can create a lot of confusion and a lot of further division, and it does not allow us to really look at the real problem objectively.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madam Khera, and thank you, Mr. Niemi.

Madame Michaud, you have one minute, please.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll leave my minute for Ms. Audette so she can answer my previous question on how to restore the bond of trust that has been broken.

[Michèle Audette]

To restore the broken bond of trust, stakeholders must be brought together in a place where they will feel safe, if the will is there and if they accept. We must try to agree to see how we can do things together, for the well-being and welfare of the members of our communities.

I always tell myself that you have to recognize what is broken. However, should we keep the status quo and maintain what is broken, or are we going to dare to do things differently with those who have a lot to tell us? I'm talking about indigenous people, of course.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

What is the federal government's role in that?

[Michèle Audette]

Indigenous issues are cross-cutting and involve the provinces and territories. Some will say they have a responsibility for public safety, education and child welfare. It's a matter of having, as in Quebec, a tripartite relationship in which indigenous leadership, the Quebec government and the federal government can talk. I don't mean talking just to talk, but to do things, with a table to say that we have achieved certain objectives.

[Inaudible] my granddaughter.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madame Michaud.

Madame Audette, it's very impressive that you can manage an answer and deal with your child as well.

Colleagues, before I ask Mr. Harris for a final minute, you've all been very disciplined, as have the witnesses, and the staff tell me that we could do another round. I'm thinking of maybe three minutes for the Conservatives, three minutes for the Liberals, and another one minute each for the NDP and the Bloc.

Does a third round meet with your approval?

Okay. Well, even if it doesn't, it does.

Mr. Harris, you have one minute, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

As long as the minutes are as long as the last one, it's okay.

Mr. Niemi, you talked about Jordan's principle as it may apply to civilian oversight and the delay in doing things. The RCMP oversight board has had the Colten Boushie case on its books for three years or more. It's now been sitting on the commissioner's desk for a long time. It can't seem to get a response. Is that particular problem with the response time from the commissioner something that needs to be fixed in order to provide adequate oversight?

[Fo Niemi]

I believe it has to be fixed, because when a process goes on more than a year and a half without any results, ordinary people may feel discouraged. They will not come back, or they may not even come forward the next time around. We need to fast-track without compromising the quality and the fairness of the investigation or the complaint-sending process. This is something that all administrative agencies should pay special attention to.

Last year, we had two of our cases of racial profiling thrown out by the Quebec Human Rights Tribunal because, for one case, it took the Human Rights Commission 88 months to investigate and bring the case before the tribunal. That's absolutely unthinkable in this day and age. That was a decision last year.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Do my Conservative colleagues have a three-minute question?

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

I'll go ahead. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Niemi, I have a question for you. I understand from your resumé that you have extensive experience advising the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and the RCMP. I'm assuming that you would be intimately aware of what education goes on in police forces and in police academies. Maybe you could elaborate on that. We're talking about systemic racism and we're looking for systemic solutions. Perhaps education of police forces is one.

[Fo Niemi]

I hear a lot about training. I think that we have to start training at an early level, even before they get to the police department, and let us not forget that we need to train the trainers, because often trainers are behind the times in terms of concepts such as intersectionality, systemic discrimination, and merging the notion of human rights and policing.

The other thing that we have to focus on is this: Training people is one thing, but you have to make sure that the police departments reflect the people in the communities they serve. Employment equity and equitable representation must be the guiding principles for any police organization, especially if it wants to go for a cultural shift in its ways of doing things.

We have moved away from employment equity in the police departments for so long. Now we need to produce the numbers at every level so that men, women, and people of different genders or different backgrounds are reflected. When there are more people of diverse backgrounds, we believe that the organization and the culture will shift, and shift in the right direction—

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Okay. Good.

Sorry. Time is short.

I have a follow-up question. What is your knowledge of the extent of curricula at police academies when it comes to race relations? Is it adequate, inadequate? What would you like to see in our report about that?

[Fo Niemi]

I would like to see less abstraction, less theory, and more direct contact with real people in real scenarios in terms of real training in police techniques and technologies.

More importantly, you have to make sure that the cadets, the trainees, reflect the communities in which they're going to serve. If you don't have fair representation, you can train.... If people don't have the direct, personal, daily contact with people from different backgrounds, you can train people for the rest of their lives, but the organization will not shift that culture and bridge the gap. Whether it's cultural, social or economic, the gap will always be there.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Van Popta.

Do my Liberal colleagues have a three-minute question?

Go ahead, Mr. Iacono.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Ms. Audette.

You recently reported seeing a wave of violent threats online toward indigenous women.

Could you explain the reasons for this worrying phenomenon and the steps you recommend to respond to it?

[Michèle Audette]

Having myself been the victim of intimidation and death threats on Facebook in September, I would say that even when you're an activist with a good network of people, it can be unsettling, but you have to pull yourself together. It's easy to remember that many of us may not have a network like mine or people to explain to us what our rights and protections are, and how we can overcome these challenges.

Some young women and women of all ages tell us that they experience intimidation and violence because they take a stand or because they have a lifestyle of their own that upsets a movement or a leader.

I would say it's a pan-Canadian phenomenon that doesn't just affect indigenous women. Yet when indigenous women report these assaults, the response is sometimes slower, as Mr. Niemi explained. The commissions are not prepared for this, nor are our police officers, and our indigenous and Quebec institutions don't know how to deal with it either. We end up wondering what to do.

However, it's an unacceptable form of violence. Some of the people who are subjected to it will even attempt suicide, and some of them succeed unfortunately.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Audette.

I have no further questions, Mr. Chair, for my part.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

There is still a minute left, if a Liberal wants to pick up a minute.

Madame Michaud, take one minute, please.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

On a more personal note, Ms. Audette, I would like to know what your expectations are with respect to the government's response to this report that we will be tabling in the House of Commons, the umpteenth report on indigenous issues. In this regard, we are still waiting for the government's response to the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, or NIMMIWG.

What do you think the government should do in the immediate future with all these possible solutions?

[Michèle Audette]

I understand that four groups have been set up, including the one of families with Le Mocassin Télégramme and the social networks, where we talk privately on Messenger and Twitter. I hope that this mobilization will contribute to the reflection of the provinces, territories and the federal government in relation to an action plan on violence against indigenous women and girls.

There is a tendency to blame everything on the federal government. I would therefore like to remind you that I signed a NIMMIWG report intended solely for the Quebec government. In fact, for the first time in history, all provinces and territories were required to participate in the inquiry. If I may, I would also like to remind the Government of Quebec that it has a responsibility within its territory in relation to the NIMMIWG.

So, transparency, accountability, and explaining where you stand: these are always reassuring and are what I ask when I sometimes talk to someone in Ottawa. Tell us what you're doing, so we can better understand.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madame Michaud.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.