Public Safety Committee on July 25th, 2022

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Good, because I guess the reason we're here today is from what has come to light from the handwritten notes of Superintendent Darren Campbell, which make specific reference to the commissioner having said that she had made a promise and that this was tied to impending gun control legislation.

Now you have very clearly stated on the record that no such promise was made and no direction was given. Why, then, do you think, in your opinion, Superintendent Campbell would have written that specifically in his notes, written during or shortly after a conference call with the commissioner?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I think that's a question better put to the participants in that conversation. I was not a party to it. I had no knowledge of that conversation. I can tell you, and I'll repeat very clearly, I hope for all of you, that at no time did I give that operational direction to the RCMP commissioner to release that information, nor did she promise me that she would. But, with respect to the conversation she had with her team in Nova Scotia, that's a question that.... I was not a party to those conversations. It's a question best put to those who were a party to it.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Okay, we'll leave it at that.

In response to previous questions on this topic, the Prime Minister publicly stated that his government did not put any undue influence or pressure on the RCMP. But that was kind of an evasive answer to the question because, while he makes specific reference to undue influence or pressure, it may leave it open to other types of influence and pressure.

How would you interpret the Prime Minister's answer to those specific questions?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

With respect, I'm not really feeling that it's appropriate for me to start interpreting that, but let me explain the conversations that were taking place in the immediate aftermath of this terrible tragedy. We were hearing from people right across the country. Most importantly, we were hearing from the families of the victims that there was a great deal of questions and concerns about what had taken place.

I do have notes from the proposed terms of reference for what became the Mass Casualty Commission, where we talked about the need to deal with the absence of red flags prior to the event; the police actions, taking into account the COVID environment; communications with the public during and after the event; policies with respect to the disposal of RCMP kit and vehicles; training and RCMP preparedness for active shooter complaints and, very importantly, support for the families and the victims.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Minister. I'm sorry, but my time is running out shortly and I do want to change tack here. I don't want to repeat many of the questions that were asked.

Mr. Noormohamed asked you to carefully explain the relationship between the Minister of Public Safety and the RCMP. You gave a very clear answer. The problem is, Minister, that other governments—previous governments, both Conservative and Liberal—have had ministers who have given operational direction to the RCMP. We saw it with the Chrétien government back in the 1990s with the APEC summit. Direction was also given back in the 1950s by the Diefenbaker government with an incident in Newfoundland.

I think the problem, Minister, lies with the interpretation of the RCMP Act, specifically subsection 5(1), which provides basically for the appointment of the commissioner, “who, under the direction of the Minister, has control and management of the Force”.

I'm paraphrasing that, but it basically leaves it quite vague. Would you agree that's quite a vague statement in the act that governs the RCMP?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'll explain that I think it's crystal clear. The Minister of Public Safety has the ability—

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

You say that despite the fact that other governments have overstepped their bounds.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I can just tell you that for me, when I was Minister of Public Safety, it was a very bright line. The Minister of Public Safety has the ability to issue ministerial directives with respect to certain policy matters for the RCMP, but the line between having government or a politician direct the investigation or any of the operational activities of the RCMP, for me, is a bright line and one I have never crossed.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I don't doubt that you find it crystal clear, but I'm trying to find ways so that we don't again get into this kind of situation in the future. So, Minister, my question for you is how can we possibly amend this section of the act to make it crystal clear for successors in other governments so that we don't have meetings in the future where we're questioning a minister of public safety for alleged interference in ongoing RCMP investigations? Are there amendments that you think could be used to strengthen this act so it is crystal clear for everyone who holds that office?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mr. MacGregor, I would just point out to you that, in my experience as the public safety minister, there were a number of instances where some of my colleagues in the House were insisting that the police be directed in their activities in response to blockades, investigations and other matters.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

You have 10 seconds, Minister.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

At all times I have maintained the principle that we will never interfere with the operations of the RCMP.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you.

We now move to a second round of questions, beginning with Mr. Ellis.

Mr. Ellis, welcome to the committee. I'm glad you're here this morning. You have five minutes for this round. The floor is yours.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a great pleasure to be here representing the great people of Cumberland—Colchester, of course, where this unfortunate incident took place for the most part.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

I'll start with a quote: “Nova Scotians told us they needed this process to be independent, thorough and transparent, and we agree.”

Minister Blair, do you know who said that, sir?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I suspect it was me.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

It was you. That's very correct, sir.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

By the way, I believe that.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Great. Oddly enough, though, sir, from the very beginning you did not want an inquiry. Is that true?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

No, let me be very clear. Thank you for the opportunity to clarify that concern—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I don't really need any clarification, sir. I just need a simple yes or no.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

In fact, in the immediate days following the shooting, I reached out to the Province of Nova Scotia. I had proposed terms of reference to conduct a broad review of the mass shooting in Nova Scotia, and—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Yes, sir. We understand that. Thank you.

I know that we're tight on time, so let's get to the matter. You wanted a review, not an inquiry. Then when the inquiry came around, you took the opportunity, sir, to actually appoint some very interesting commissioners—oddly enough, Mr. MacDonald, first cousin to one of the individuals who was shot, and a well-known Liberal, who stayed charges against Gerry Regan; Ms. Fitch, whose father was a Mountie, a five-year chief of police who was on a board of the RCMP; and Ms. Stanton, who actually wrote a book in 2021, released before the commission's start, to change the way public inquiries are held.

Is that not political interference from the very beginning, sir?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Absolutely not, sir. In fact, I spoke to the attorney general in Nova Scotia, and he recommended former Chief Justice MacDonald as the commission chair. Chief Fitch had been the chief in Fredericton—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Yes—

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

—when two of her officers and two citizens were killed in another mass shooting in that location—