Evidence of meeting #31 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
We're out of time for this session.
I would like to thank the witnesses very much for the generosity of their time. This takes us to the end of this panel.
Colleagues, we're more than two hours through a four-hour meeting. I think that probably means that one or more of you may want to make a trip somewhere, even if it's to get a sandwich.
I'm going to suggest that we take a 15-minute break now to give members a chance to do whatever it is they feel obliged or required to do, or want to do. The clerk will give us the go-ahead sign in about 15 minutes when we will proceed with the next panel.
Thank you very much. We're suspended for 15 minutes.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
I would like to call this meeting back to order, everybody.
Our third panel of witnesses are, as individuals, Lee Bergerman, former assistant commissioner and commanding officer of the RCMP in Nova Scotia, and Sharon Tessier, former director general, national communication services, RCMP. From the RCMP, we have Chris Leather, chief superintendent, criminal operations officer, Nova Scotia.
Up to five minutes will be given for opening remarks after which we will proceed with rounds of questions. Each witness in this panel has their own opening remarks to deliver, so that will be three times five minutes each.
Welcome to all.
I now invite each witness to make their opening statement. We will proceed in the order listed on the notice, beginning with Ms. Bergerman.
You have the floor for five minutes. Please go ahead.
Assistant Commissioner Lee Bergerman Former Assistant Commissioner and Commanding Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Nova Scotia, As an Individual
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My name is Lee Bergerman, and I retired at the rank of assistant commissioner earlier this year, having served 36 years in the RCMP.
On April 28, I was a serving member and was the commanding officer of H Division.
On April 18 and April 19, 2020, a gunman murdered 22 innocent people in Nova Scotia during a 13-hour rampage until he was shot and killed by RCMP members. This mass casualty shooting was the worst in Canadian history and has forever impacted many lives in a negative way.
On April 28, 2020, in my role as the CO of H Division, I was doing detachment visits to those most impacted by the casualty event. Those detachments are in the northeast part of Nova Scotia, where most of the murders occurred.
Many of our first responders were heavily impacted by this event, as you can well imagine. They were hurting for the loss of their fellow citizens who lived in the communities they policed. We were also mourning the loss of our own Heidi Stevenson, who was murdered by the gunman during the rampage. We also were very much concerned about Constable Chad Morrison, who was shot and wounded during the gunman's rampage. To say that many of our police officers and community members were traumatized would be an understatement.
It was my responsibility as the CO to do personal visits to support our members, assess the needs of the communities in the aftermath and develop action plans for the support of those affected. I was also pursuing the development of strategies for future resource needs.
On April 28, after finishing my detachment visits, I returned to H Division headquarters in Dartmouth. Soon after I got back to the office, I watched Chief Superintendent Campbell's press conference that he and our communications team had been working on for days. At that time, H Division was being heavily criticized for lack of information being shared about the mass casualty shooting.
This press conference was extremely important, not only for the RCMP but also for the public, to have a preliminary understanding of what occurred during the 13-hour rampage. Chief Superintendent Campbell did an excellent job presenting the facts and answering questions for the many press members who were there.
After the press conference, I spoke with Lia Scanlan, director of communications for H Division, and Chief Superintendent Campbell, and I congratulated them for the excellent job they had done presenting the facts. There were many details that could not be shared publicly due to the ongoing investigation.
Shortly thereafter, Ms. Scanlan came back to my office to advise me that Deputy Commissioner Brennan had called her and said that we were required to be on a conference call in five minutes with the commissioner. Ms. Scanlan was visibly upset and advised me that Deputy Commissioner Brennan was very mad and demanded that I, Chief Superintendent Leather and Chief Superintendent Campbell be on the call. We all assembled in my boardroom and were joined by the commissioner, Deputy Commissioner Brennan, Sharon Tessier from national headquarters and Dan Brien.
The commissioner started the conversation, and it was evident she was very angry at my team. The tone of her voice and what she said to all of us made it apparent that she was not happy and felt disrespected and disobeyed. It should be noted that I was confused from the start of the conversation, as I had not been privy to any conversations that I now know occurred the night before and during the day of April 28, 2020. During the conference call, at one point I asked Chief Superintendent Leather what this conversation was about. It was apparent Chief Superintendent Leather was as blindsided as I was at the tone and content of the conversation.
Near the end of the call, Chief Superintendent Campbell left the room obviously upset, and Ms. Scanlan was emotionally very upset. After the call, both chief superintendent and I had a brief conversation about what occurred, the negative impact on our employees and the inappropriateness of the content.
When I left the office shortly after this conversation, I called Deputy Commissioner Brennan and expressed my disappointment at how my team had been treated, the inappropriateness of the tone and the things that were said on the call. Knowing the impact this conference call had on my staff, I advised Deputy Commissioner Brennan that the conference call and the content were very big missteps by the commissioner and that I didn't think the commissioner realized the impact her words had on our staff.
I say all of this without any personal agenda or with any previous issues with Commissioner Lucki. I consider her a friend, and I can honestly say that this meeting was not at all reflective of her leadership style.
It is with regret that it has come to this, but as the commanding officer of H Division at the time, it is my duty and responsibility to speak up for our members based on the truth and my perspective of the situation. I wish to affirm that I am testifying to the best of my personal recollection and doing so in the interest of fairness and living up to the vision and values of the RCMP, which I hold dear.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
Thank you very much.
I would now ask for Ms. Tessier to take the floor for up to five minutes for an opening comment.
Go ahead.
Sharon Tessier Former Director General, National Communication Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to participate on this panel.
Over two years ago, family members, friends, communities, first responders and members of the RCMP endured a massive and devastating attack on their loved ones that deeply shook the people of Nova Scotia and Canadians across the country. Two years later, the gravity of the unprecedented tragedy still has a strong hold on me and my RCMP colleagues, and to this day, I hold the victims, their families and those who faced the danger in my heart.
My husband is from Cape Breton, where we spend several months a year. My children are all students or graduates from St. Francis Xavier University in Nova Scotia. I have seen in my family and friends the grief, devastation and bewilderment caused by the rampage in this province. The sense of loss is profound.
I've been invited here today to discuss allegations of political interference in the 2020 Nova Scotia mass murder investigation. On April 18 and 19, I was more than 1,000 kilometres away and had the benefit of not being in the eye of the storm. I was the director general of the RCMP's national communication services in Ottawa. While I worked very closely with the communication teams across the country, they ultimately reported to their commanding officers and worked in partnership with their colleagues on the front line, who briefed them on operational issues.
We provided advice and guidance. Communications, generally, does not have the authority to direct or dictate what our subject matter experts share. We were non-partisan and protected our operational independence while respecting the communications protocol of keeping our partners in Public Safety and the Privy Council Office updated. I also regularly briefed our senior leaders, including the commissioner.
While I have a profound respect for the work of the RCMP—my father was a regular member, as is my son—I know enough about the complexities of policing to know that I am by no means an expert. However, what I do know, after more than three decades working for several different departments, is how to communicate and how to manage a crisis.
As such, in the aftermath of the April 2020 massacre, my positioning was clear. I was strongly advocating for the timely release of information, knowing some would need to be withheld to preserve operational integrity. My goal was to uphold public confidence and trust in our organization and more specifically the Nova Scotia RCMP. The backbone of this was to be open and transparent, sharing what we could and explaining why some details could not be discussed at that time. My goal was to give clarity to the public without divulging any information that could impede an ongoing investigation. It was, to say the least, a delicate balance indeed.
This is why I was pushing to share more information and information constantly, quickly and openly to the media and the public. One such item was the weapons used. The public knew about the presence of guns and I advised that we provide as much detail as possible. In crisis communications, silence is not golden and can bring doubt, rumours and speculation. You cannot build trust in a vacuum.
I was present at the meeting convened on April 28, at the request of the commissioner, to discuss the ongoing communications. Now, two years later and having retired in November, I'm at a disadvantage, as I do not have access to all of the information from that time, such as emails or communications material, but I will share my recollection.
I remember it was an unpleasant meeting. Commissioner Lucki was controlled but clearly frustrated and dissatisfied with our overall communication efforts. I cannot speak to how others felt, but it was emotional for me. I don't know anyone who likes to hear that their boss is unhappy with their work, particularly after so much effort.
At the meeting, I shared that I had informed the commissioner that there would be more clarity on the weapons, albeit at a high level, during the news conference held earlier that morning. I briefed her that it would go one way; then it went another. To my recollection, this was the impetus for the conference call shortly after. With regard to political pressure, I cannot recall the commissioner's exact comments, but I do remember she was irritated that she had briefed the minister that we would be proactively discussing the weapons, based on my earlier update.
I'm not here to second-guess my actions or those of my colleagues. Our experiences, perspectives and views were different. They were under immense pressure in Nova Scotia. There had clearly been some miscommunication between us, as can happen when moving at an unrelenting pace, adjusting to remote work and having numerous versions and discussions circulating at once. I offer this for context, not as an excuse.
These are the perspectives from which I will be speaking today, and I look forward to answering your questions to the best of my knowledge.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
Thank you very much.
I would now like to invite Chief Superintendent Leather.
You have the floor for up to five minutes, whenever you're ready.
Chief Superintendent Chris Leather Criminal Operations Officer, Nova Scotia, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and select members of Parliament on the SECU committee.
My name is Chief Superintendent Chris Leather. I am the criminal operations officer for the RCMP's H Division, Nova Scotia, as I was so assigned in April 2020. I've been a police officer for over 32 years and a commissioned officer since 2014. I'm honoured to be here in person today, along with my colleagues Ms. Bergerman and Ms. Tessier.
Before I offer my introductory remarks, I would like to take a minute to recognize the Portapique tragedy of April 18 and 19, 2020, one that so horrendously impacted the country, the province, its communities and of course the victims and their families in Nova Scotia. The impacts have been and continue to be felt by the public and our membership. The pain will be felt by all for many years to come. As Canada's worst ever mass murder, we are forever scarred by this senseless act of violence perpetrated by the lone gunman. In all of this, I am proud of our members' dedication, commitment and resilience then and now in the face of such horrendous events and criticism.
I'm returning to Nova Scotia tomorrow. I'm scheduled to testify for two days at the Mass Casualty Commission. Also, I recently provided a 10-hour recorded audio statement to MCC counsel pertaining to my roles and responsibilities during and after the Portapique tragedy. I will remain engaged to assist with policy change, law amendments, cultural change and whatever else is asked of me.
We look forward to receiving the final report from the Mass Casualty Commission in November this year and acting on the report's recommendations. We know that there are many areas we can improve on and gaps that we will address. I know that the “after action report” work will be crucial to bolstering public safety and confidence in the RCMP.
I want the committee to know that we recognized issues early on. Where we could, we already began addressing the gaps identified, working shoulder to shoulder with our provincial government counterparts, Nova Scotia municipal police chiefs, fellow criminal operations officers and commanding officers across Canada, and of course the communities we serve to improve and evolve as an organization.
The RCMP is the provincial police service in Nova Scotia. We serve at the behest of the Province of Nova Scotia, the public, and Public Safety Canada. We take this responsibility seriously. We look forward to serving Nova Scotians in this capacity for years to come.
My role as the criminal operations officer is as the de facto 2IC of the RCMP in Nova Scotia. All operational units and programs, except federal policing, roll up under me. This includes all general duty policing and specialized policing services for the RCMP, including but not limited to uniformed policing, specialized policing services, including our emergency response team and critical incident commanders, and operational communications managers and call-takers, all of whom played critical roles in our Portapique response.
I understand that the focus of this committee's work is to determine whether there was political interference with the RCMP as it related to the gun legislation passed by the federal government in May 2020. I was a participant in the April 28 teleconference hosted by Commissioner Lucki, which included Deputy Commissioner Brennan, Ms. Tessier, Mr. Dan Brien, Assistant Commissioner Bergerman, Chief Superintendent Campbell, Ms. Lia Scanlan and me. As I said in my MCC statement, I am available to answer questions concerning what I heard on the call and my related roles and responsibilities leading up to the call of April 28 and key after-discussions with my colleagues—namely, CO Lee Bergerman, Chief Superintendent Campbell, and the director of corporate communications, Lia Scanlan.
What I will say at this point is that the meeting was remarkable in its timing, only 10 days after the tragedy; the call contents, infused with emotion; and a reference to pending gun control legislation by the commissioner, just a few minutes after a key press conference given by Chief Superintendent Campbell, during which he effectively provided a comprehensive update on the criminal investigation known as H-Strong, including associated timelines.
What I will also say is that I was unaware of the key lead-up conversations that had occurred between Chief Superintendent Campbell, Ms. Scanlan, Ms. Tessier and Dan Brien of national corporate communications on the evening of April 27 and into the morning of April 28 surrounding the firearms used by the gunman specific to the talking points that were prepared for Chief Superintendent Campbell's April 28 televised news conference. I was truly taken aback by the discussion at the teleconference, and it would take several post-fact discussions for me to piece together and to better understand the context of the comments.
Liberal
C/Supt Chris Leather
I've completed this post-fact review and have a much clearer sense now of what occurred. I look forward to sharing with you what I heard and have learned since.
Thank you very much.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
Thank you very much.
Thank you for the opening remarks from all of our witnesses.
We now move into the first round of questioning.
To open, it will be Ms. Dancho.
You have six minutes, whenever you're ready.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Tessier, you were the former director general of the national communications service for the RCMP, correct?
Former Director General, National Communication Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Yes, I was.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Following the Nova Scotia attacks, you would have been in direct communication with Minister Blair's office, notably his staff, and the Prime Minister's Office, notably the Prime Minister's staff, correct?
Former Director General, National Communication Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
No, I was not.
I have a director of operational communications, and she was the one who was briefing, we call it “downtown”, which was Public Safety and the Privy Council Office. We have a protocol that the minister's office reaches out through Public Safety Canada, not directly to us.
Former Director General, National Communication Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Jolene Bradley.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Who was her contact in the Prime Minister's Office?
Former Director General, National Communication Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
She would not have been dealing with the Prime Minister's Office. It would have been Privy Council Office. It would probably have been Ken MacKillop, the head of the communications at PCO.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Was there anybody in Minister Blair's office that she was dealing with?
Former Director General, National Communication Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Not that I'm aware of. She would have been dealing with our colleagues in communications at Public Safety.
Former Director General, National Communication Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
You're welcome.
