Public Safety Committee on May 10th, 2023

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I do have unstable Internet, which is why my camera was off, but I voted no.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

We will certainly make allowances for communications issues.

(On clause 23)

That brings us to clause 23. We have amendment CPC-18 in the name of Ms. Dancho.

I presume Mr. Lloyd will move that.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I'll be withdrawing the amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

That is withdrawn.

We move to amendment CPC-18.1 in the name of Mr. Ruff.

Mr. Ruff, do you wish to move this?

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

I do, Chair.

Look, everybody has the amendment in front of them. I've talked to pretty much everybody on the committee in person, although maybe not some of the subs. The bottom line is that the intention behind this motion is just to make Canada safer and to allow firearms owners to actually seek help.

The challenge we have is that, ever since the handgun freeze came into effect last October and now with this bill, should it pass, any handgun owner, in particular those who are veterans or maybe law enforcement officers, who is dealing with a mental health challenge or PTSD has no way to actually ask to transfer their firearm or ask somebody to temporarily put it in storage.

There have been discussions with the officials. I know the parliamentary secretary and I have chatted, and she seems to indicate there's some provision within the Firearms Act. However, the only act or piece of legislation I can find is section 135 of the Firearms Act, and it does not state this clearly at all. In fact, it refers to the former act. If the officials can clarify exactly what paragraph, I'd be open to discussion.

The bottom line is that, right now, handgun owners who are dealing with mental health challenges will not seek help because they're afraid they're going to lose their handguns, whereas if they report it to law enforcement or the CFO.... I've talked to the CFO of Ontario, and they're not in the business of storing everybody's handguns in that position.

This is just a way to allow somebody dealing with a mental health challenge to actually get their firearms safely stored while they get treatment, and then there are ways through regulation that we can ensure that they're healthy again before they get them back. My point is that this is a way to add some clarity and add some reassurance for members of the firearms community that, when they're dealing with mental health challenges, they can actually get the help they need and make Canada safer.

Thanks, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Ruff.

We have Ms. Damoff, followed by Mr. Lloyd.

Mr. Damoff, go ahead, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I do thank Mr. Ruff for bringing this forward, because I know his intentions are indeed admirable. He is trying to find a way to ensure that people who don't want to have their firearms when they're having a mental health crisis have the ability to store them somewhere else.

I wonder if officials could clarify. I understand that an individual can obtain an ATT for temporary storage. It would still apply after Bill C-21 comes into effect. That would include if they were going on a cruise or if they were having a crisis.

Could you perhaps explain what is in place, confirm that it will be in place after the bill comes into effect and explain what the process would be? Maybe you could refer to where Mr. Ruff could find this in the regulations, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you. Can you tell me what an ATT is?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

It's an authorization to transport.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

[Rob Mackinnon]

I can speak to that.

The current authorization-to-transport application does have a list of purposes for transport, one of which is temporary storage with an individual or at a business location. The individual or business where it would be temporarily stored has to possess the privilege to possess that class of firearm.

Within the authorization-to-transport regulations, under, I believe, section 1.2, which is “manner of application”, it states “being made in the prescribed form”, and the prescribed form—being the application—is what indicates the temporary storage element. It's not clearly articulated in the regulations, but because it's the prescribed form and the ATT regulations refer to the prescribed form, that purpose of temporary storage is currently in the law.

[Rachel Mainville-Dale]

Perhaps I could add just a little comment. Transfer, with regard to the handgun freeze, again I'll go back to [Technical difficulty—Editor] which is barter, sell or give. Somebody who is temporarily storing it is not transferring the handgun. Therefore, there already is a mechanism, as my colleague from the CFP has outlined.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Lloyd, then Mr. Julian and then Mr. Ruff again.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I'm somewhat concerned that the existing provisions on temporary storage aren't good enough in the case when somebody is having a temporary mental illness crisis. Yes, you can get an ATT to send it somewhere, but then the person temporarily possessing the firearm has no authority to continue holding that firearm if the person going through the mental health crisis goes to retrieve it.

Isn't that the case? They can't prevent them from accessing it if they're temporarily storing it. That's why I think a temporary transfer needs to happen, for the protection of the person. I think this is a positive amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

I want to understand, for the ATT and the prescribed form, does it include conditions around that transfer? Are there time limits that are set to it? What are the conditions that basically are the framework around the use of the form?

[Rob Mackinnon]

The prescribed form, which indicates the purpose of transport, has the dates and associated times when the firearm would be transported, whether it's for the purposes of temporary storage or movement to a public agent or taking it to a business for repair. It has those elements within the prescribed form.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Would “the reasons for” include something similar to what Mr. Ruff has offered as an amendment?

[Kellie Paquette]

No, they do not have mental health as one of the selection criteria.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Okay. What would be valid as part of the selection criteria?

[Kellie Paquette]

It's temporary storage, so leaving the country, taking—

[Rob Mackinnon]

It's taking it to a range for target practice, moving to a new residence—temporary storage—as was stated.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

That temporary storage would have a set time limit. What would happen if that time limit needed to be extended?

[Rob Mackinnon]

The individual would have to obtain another ATT, another authorization to transport, from the CFO. It also might be a one-way transport, meaning that the allowance would be to take it from that individual's residence to a business or another individual for temporary storage, or it could include the return trip, if it was known to the individual. If they were going out of the country for a week and they wanted somebody else to temporarily store their firearm, it would be from Monday to Friday and would indicate that on the form.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Okay. You understand what we're trying to get at.

I have a lot of sympathy for Mr. Ruff's proposed amendment. In the case where there is, as is stated in the proposed amendment, a mental illness or a similar problem, in your judgment, do the ATT conditions provide enough allowance for that kind of situation where somebody, to protect themselves and their loved ones, is temporarily storing somewhere else?