Public Safety Committee on May 10th, 2023

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

This seems like a pretty good amendment. Conceptually, we'll be supporting it. I just have a couple questions for the officials.

I don't think I have to say this again, but I'm definitely, on our side, not the firearms expert. Concerning the terminology “cartridge magazine”, can I get a full-fledged definition of exactly what that means?

[Rachel Mainville-Dale]

A cartridge magazine is defined in the Criminal Code. It means “a device or container from which ammunition may be fed into the firing chamber of a firearm”.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I'm sorry; I couldn't hear the very end of that. Do you mind repeating it?

[Rachel Mainville-Dale]

“Cartridge magazine” means “a device or container from which ammunition may be fed into the firing chamber of a firearm”. That's in the Criminal Code.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I have Mr. Blois followed by Mr. Lawrence.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

My first question would be for the officials.

I agree conceptually that this has merit. Would the idea that the licence to buy a magazine or cartridge would be associated with a gun licence in the country, or are they two separate licences?

To me, it looks like there could be two ways to go about this. You could either require gun shops that are seeking to sell ammunition or cartridges to require a proof of licence, a registered gun licence, or you could simply attach a licence to purchase ammunition as a part of the condition of a registered licence.

Can the officials explain how this would play out on the ground?

[Rachel Mainville-Dale]

If the requirement were to go through, it would work somewhat like buying ammunition. You'd go to your store, you would present your PAL, you'd say you're licensed and the clerk or the store would validate it. You would be able to walk out with your cartridge magazine—after paying for it, of course.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Would there be situations in which someone may have a registered gun licence but not have access to the ammunition licence or the cartridge licence that's being proposed by Ms. Michaud, or would it just be the idea that those two things are integrated, such that, as was explained by Ms. Damoff, in relation to someone being able to buy a cartridge, they would have to demonstrate that they are a valid and registered licence-holder in the country?

[Rachel Mainville-Dale]

Thank you. I think I understand now the sense of your question.

A possession acquisition licence allows you to buy non-restricted firearms, unless you have special conditions that allow you to have restricted ones. After that, it doesn't specify that you need another, special condition on your licence to be able to buy ammunition. If cartridge magazines were to be added, you wouldn't need another special condition on your licence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Blois.

We go to Mr. Lawrence and then Mr. Julian.

Mr. Lawrence, go ahead.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I'm candidly not sure whether we have the right officials here, but I'll throw this out on the record.

I think this is an excellent amendment. It seems to be one that makes sense. It also appears that, if this becomes law, just like guns and ammunition currently flow across our border freely, magazines will soon follow. I would hope that the CBSA would be advised of that and be looking out for not just bullets and guns but also magazines.

If the officials have a comment, that's great; otherwise, I'll just leave my comment on the record.

[Rachel Mainville-Dale]

I will add a comment.

There are some cartridge magazines that are prohibited devices already. Those that are overcapacity, centre-fire or cartridges with a capacity of more than five are already prohibited devices, and the CBSA does what it does best and attempts to stop those from coming across the border.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I support the amendment. My questions have already been asked and answered by the officials and other members of the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

Mr. Motz assures me that he can ask a question and get a response in 10 seconds.

You have 10 seconds.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I didn't mean for a response. I could ask the question.

This is a PAL, not necessarily an RPAL, and it relates to everything listed here. You need a PAL for everything listed here in this new amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Actually, I stand corrected. You have two minutes and a half.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

That's what I thought. I'll slow down and ask it differently.

If I read this correctly, is it's saying that based on this act, everything listed here, the prohibited firearms, restricted prohibited devices, ammunition, prohibited ammunition and magazines all require a PAL. Is that what you're saying?

[Rachel Mainville-Dale]

Section 4 of the Firearms Act is a purpose provision of the Firearms Act, which sets out the parameters of what the Firearms Act does. If this is an amendment to add cartridge magazines to the list of things where, under the Firearms Act, you would authorize, for example—notably by sections 21 to 34 and 54 to 73—the transfer or offer to transfer...and then it has the list, then, lower down in the Firearms Act, you would say what the requirement is in terms of how to transfer. It could be a licence, so it's not the same ones. This is just a purpose clause.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

That's fair enough. Is it just “magazines” that we're adding, or is it all of the other ones that were on there?

[Rachel Mainville-Dale]

Right now it says, “firearms, prohibited weapons, restricted weapons, prohibited devices, ammunition and prohibited ammunition”. Then you would be adding magazines.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Okay, thank you.

That's what I thought. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Are there any further interventions?

Seeing none, let us have the vote.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

On division, Mr. Chair.