Public Safety Committee on May 30th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 68 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

We will start by acknowledging that we are meeting on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin people.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Friday, November 25, 2022, the committee will begin consideration of Bill C-20, an act establishing the public complaints and review commission and amending certain acts and statutory instruments.

With us today we have the Hon. Marco Mendicino, Minister of Public Safety.

Appearing with the minister, from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have Randall Koops, director general, international border policy; Martin Leuchs, manager; and Julie Thompson, director general, policing policy.

Please note that the minister will be with us for the first hour. The remaining officials from Public Safety, the RCMP and the Canada Border Services Agency will answer questions from members in the second hour.

Welcome, everyone.

I now invite Minister Mendicino to make an opening statement.

You have 10 minutes, sir.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Minister of Public Safety]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Colleagues, I am pleased to appear before the committee on Bill C-20, an act establishing the public complaints and review commission. A robust, independent review of our law enforcement agencies is essential to public trust and transparency to make sure all Canadians receive equal, safe and fair treatment from the agencies that are designed to protect us.

In recent years, we have become acutely aware of anti-Black and -indigenous racism in our policing and justice system. In fact, this is a phenomenon which has been going on for some time. We know that racialized and indigenous Canadians are vastly overrepresented in prisons, interact more frequently with law enforcement and are disproportionately subjected to bias and even profiling. This is in addition to a culture of turning a blind eye to harassment, intimidation and other unacceptable behaviour from our institutions in the law enforcement sector.

As representatives of our constituents and a voice for all Canadians, we have a duty to address these legacies. That is precisely why we have tabled Bill C-20. This legislation would establish the public complaints and review commission or, as I will refer to it, the PCRC, as the new, independent civilian review body for both the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Canada Border Services Agency. Notably, this would establish the first independent review for the Canada Border Services Agency.

The PCRC would continue to fulfill the existing Civilian Review and Complaints Commission's complaints and review mandate for the RCMP, with increased accountability tools at its disposal.

The PCRC would review and investigate any flagged non-national security RCMP activity and report its findings and recommendations to the RCMP commissioner and to the office of the Minister of Public Safety.

The RCMP provides policing services to over 150 municipalities and 600 first nations across the country that interact with a broad cross-section of Canadian society, making this oversight a necessary check.

For the CBSA, there is currently no independent mechanism external to that organization to review public complaints, only an internal process. It is the only enforcement agency in the Public Safety portfolio without any external independent review. The CBSA interacts with almost 100 million travellers in an average year. It processes over 20 million commercial shipments and over 60 million courier shipments per year.

Oversight and review are long overdue for this organization. Bill C-20 would close that long-standing gap. Through the PCRC, complainants would now have access to an external body that could independently initiate, review and investigate CBSA conduct.

I recognize that some individuals may be reluctant to file or initiate a complaint. That's why the act allows a third party to file a complaint on behalf of an individual, provided that their express consent is obtained.

As an additional stopgap measure, the PCRC chairperson would also conduct a review of problematic conduct.

To ensure the effectiveness of this expanded mandate, additional mechanisms would be provided to the PCRC to strengthen the accountability of the RCMP and the CBSA, or Canada Border Services Agency, by establishing clear statutory timelines for the RCMP and the CBSA to respond to PCRC reports.

The RCMP and CBSA would be required to report annually on their progress in implementing PCRC recommendations, which the Minister of Public Safety, in turn, will table in Parliament.

This bill would also enact a requirement for the PCRC to implement public education and information programs to raise public awareness of the commission's mandate and the individual's right to redress, including among vulnerable and marginalized communities.

The PCRC would have a new authority to recommend that the RCMP commissioner and the president of the CBSA initiate disciplinary proceedings or impose measures. The commissioner and president would be required to report to both the PCRC chairperson and me on whether discipline was initiated or imposed.

Moreover, Bill C-20 creates new provisions to further enhance RCMP and CBSA accountability and transparency, namely codified timelines, annual reporting to the Minister of Public Safety and the collection of disaggregated race-based data. Race-based data collection is uniquely critical to identifying trends and addressing the entrenched systemic racism within our institutions, as I mentioned earlier.

Bill C-20 comes at a critical juncture in Canadian policing, in the immediate aftermath of the Nova Scotia Mass Casualty Commission's final report. Bill C-20 responds to the Mass Casualty Commission's findings by creating more transparent reporting for federal law enforcement agencies.

Much work remains to be done to respond to the Nova Scotia Mass Casualty Commission's final report, but the elements of Bill C‑20 demonstrate our commitment to making changes.

In addition to establishing the PCRC, this bill would create a statutory framework in the CBSA Act to govern how it responds to serious incidents, which are currently internally governed. Under this framework, the CBSA would be obligated to conduct reviews into serious incidents, to notify both the PCRC and the police of jurisdiction, and to provide the PCRC with any associated reports and information.

Canadians have made it clear to us that these issues require immediate action. I listened carefully to the arguments raised by some of my colleagues during the second reading debate of the bill about the need to ensure that Indigenous, Black and racialized people are represented in PCRC appointments.

I am pleased to note that there is much support, not only in this committee but across partisan lines, for this bill today.

I am very happy now to take any questions or comments.

Thank you again, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll start our first round of questions with Mr. Motz.

Mr. Motz, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much for being here, Minister.

The Liberal government and its commissions have a poor history with Canadians on their turnaround times.

This commission brings up some parallels for me to the immigration process and the ridiculous delays, which you are familiar with as the former minister who created some of that mess at the IRCC.

With that in mind, what specific and concrete steps will be taken to ensure that there is timely handling of complaints? It's easy to talk about it, but how is that possibly going to occur?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Motz, I want to thank you for underlining the importance of having a transparent and efficient process under the current model that we have, which is the CRCC. We have made significant progress, and the RCMP has made significant progress, in reducing timelines and delays in the wake of some court decisions, as you know.

This new commission, the PCRC, will place an emphasis on providing a robust, transparent review, so that individuals who have concerns around the level of service or conduct exhibited by the RCMP—and, for the first time, Mr. Motz, the CBSA—can be sure not only that they are being treated in a way that is consistent with dignity and respect and the charter, but also that there can be transparency and accountability about that. The PCRC will help to achieve that.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

We've been down this road before on this particular concept. We hope to get it right this time. There are some merits to this.

I notice that the act provides the PCRC with some additional authorities, specifically for initiating complaint investigations into RCMP conduct when it's “in the public interest” to do so.

Can you help us understand what that means? Isn't it all going to be in the public interest? Why do you emphasize that you'll conduct those only when it's in the public interest to do so?

I would think that if a member of the public has a complaint, it would be in the public interest.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I would tend to agree. Certainly, in my experience as somebody who has appeared in the criminal justice system, the public interest can be defined in a sufficiently broad way. That is certainly the intent of this bill. It is to open up another avenue whereby an individual, a third party or indeed the deputy heads or the chair of the commission can look into any concerns around either the professional conduct of the RCMP and CBSA or the level of service that the individual involved may have received.

This is a watershed piece of legislation. I agree with you; we've seen this type of bill before. My commitment is to work with you and to work with all parliamentarians to see this version passed into law as quickly as possible.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

I have a background in professional standards in law enforcement. Part of the function that we had in municipal police services was to ensure that complaints were dealt with appropriately at all levels in a timely manner, and that complainants were always kept abreast of what was going on.

As I'm trying to understand the whole concept of the PCRC, what is going to change in the current civilian review process? How is it going to be possible to have the capacity to deal with all complaints?

This is the part that the public needs to understand. There are still going to be requirements for the RCMP and the CBSA to investigate some of their own...what could be more minor issues, where someone might have been inappropriate in comment or in attitude with a member. I would classify that more as a minor issue, as opposed to use of force or an infringement of someone's rights, for example.

How is the commission possibly going to have the capacity to handle all complaints, as it's been touted that it will?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

You've asked two questions. I'll take the last part first and just say that we are committed to investing in this commission to the degree that is required to meet the standards that you have identified. Trust me when I tell you that I know the RCMP and the CBSA are committed to the same.

More importantly, this stand-alone legislation will represent a marked departure in a number of ways that will contribute to an enhanced independent external review of both the RCMP and, for the first time, the CBSA by creating more transparency around timelines and turnarounds for the processing of complaints. It will grant the PCRC the power to recommend that discipline proceedings be initiated and, furthermore, that sanctions or disciplinary measures be imposed. Where that is not the case, the deputy heads will be responsible for providing a report on that.

I have two other quick points, Mr. Motz, if I may.

There will be more reporting on the work of the PCRC.

Finally, and importantly, the PCRC will have the mandate to collect and disaggregate race-based data, which is critically important to reduce the systemic racism and barriers that many Canadians have experienced.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Let me ask you this, then, Minister.

Let's play this out operationally. You get dealt with by either CBSA or RCMP. It's the same commission. The PCRC is going to be investigating this. How does that play out operationally? How does the PCRC get involved in a complaint that happens at the operational level?

Will it be the same process that exists now, and the PCRC just provides oversight to that process and holds them accountable, or will the PCRC be the one that's going to begin that investigation?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I realize I'm very short on your time allotment, and I'm happy to come back to it in a future round.

There will be a separate process set up, Mr. Motz, within the PCRC's mandate to hear and process these complaints filed by anyone who submits them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Minister.

We will go now to Mr. Noormohamed, please, for six minutes.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for joining us to talk about this. I think it's a very important piece of legislation.

This is something that personally I'm very interested in and keen for us to move past the finish line. I think back to my time as a public servant from 2002 to 2006, when Mr. Koops and I worked together. There were a lot of conversations when we were talking about the Anti-terrorism Act review.

One of the bodies that was created at that time was the cross-cultural round table on security. Recommendations by that group at that time were to ensure that there was oversight of the CBSA. Sadly, there was a change in government, and nothing ever came to pass in terms of oversight of the CBSA, so I'm really pleased that we are now moving this forward.

It is undeniable for most members of the Muslim community, Arab Canadians, Sikh Canadians, brown people and Black people, and from my own experience, that we are sometimes treated differently by CBSA. This is a fact that many people have lived, and I think the fact that we are now moving this forward is an important signal. It's taken some time to get there.

I think it would be good for those Canadians to hear directly from you, Minister, about what this is going to mean for them, particularly for Canadians of colour, when they now, as Canadians, arrive back home from their travels.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I want to thank you, Mr. Noormohamed, through the chair, for your advocacy and for your leadership. I have the privilege of working with many diaspora communities that have expressed the same concern in their interactions with various institutions within Public Safety. This legislation is one step among many that our government is taking to address racism in all its forms, be it systemic, direct or subconscious, by enhancing transparency and accountability in the way in which the members of these two organizations interact with Canadians.

I will say that by setting out a mechanism by which people can submit complaints, by creating an opportunity as well so that serious systemic incidents or issues can be studied thoroughly and, equally importantly, by giving the PCRC the mandate to collect and disaggregate race-based data, we can identify not only where those issues linger but whether or not we are making progress.

The way we can, I think, move in the right direction is by using that data to inform training to make sure everyone is conscious and aware of the fact that we continue to confront challenges around systemic racism, and by reducing those barriers so that everyone is treated equally and fairly and with dignity and respect.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you.

I just wanted to touch on the last point you made around training. One of the things that are really important is to make sure that folks who are in law enforcement, working their hardest to protect Canadians, are given the feedback, the tools and the training that are required to ensure that they can be successful in undertaking their work in a way that is respectful of all Canadians.

Can you speak a little to how the PCRC will be able to provide the type of feedback or guidance that the two organizations will be required to take on board to make sure they are doing the work they need to be doing?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That's a very good question, Mr. Chair.

There are a number of ways in which the PCRC can contribute to this work. One is by recommending disciplinary proceedings, where appropriate, and even sanctions, where appropriate. Another is by initiating its own study, where there may be serious systemic issues around a certain phenomenon, including around racism. Another is, equally, by placing an obligation on the PCRC to provide more reporting, so that there can be a national discourse about how our law enforcement institutions in the RCMP and the CBSA are making progress on this.

Those are three concrete examples that I think allow there to be more transparency and accountability.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

You have a minute and a half.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

That's perfect.

One of the things that I think have been important over the course of the discussion on looking at oversight is the ability, with the support of individuals who may have been aggrieved, for organizations or others to file complaints on their behalf. I think that's an important step that we must ensure is included. Can you confirm that if somebody were to give their consent, others could file a complaint on their behalf?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I can—and I think this is important, Mr. Noormohamed—because experience tells us that the way in which there have been barriers placed in the past does, at times, dissuade individuals from coming forward. As a way of providing another option, we allow third parties—again, with consent—to advance complaints that may have been caused by the way the RCMP or the CBSA are treating Canadians, so that we can unearth where the issues are and then make the appropriate recommendations back to the respective organizations.

What I will say, on a positive note, is that having worked now with two RCMP commissioners and two presidents of the CBSA, I know there is a dedication and a commitment on the part of both organizations to making the kinds of reforms that are necessary so that Canadians can be treated with respect, free and clear from any racism.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Noormohamed.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Minister. It's always a pleasure to have you at committee. I would also like to thank your colleagues for being here.

I feel Bill C‑20 is sort of a third shot for your government. You introduced Bill C‑98 in the 42nd Parliament and Bill C‑3 in the 43rd Parliament. Those two bills died on the order paper simply because your government didn't make them a priority.

Nearly 20 years ago, in 2004, Justice O'Connor also recommended that an independent process be established to manage public complaints against the Canada Border Services Agency.

In January 2020, the Privacy Commissioner of Canada noted significant gaps in searches of travellers' electronic devices and also demonstrated the importance of independently reviewed complaints.

Given all this evidence of the need for an independent commission, why didn't your government make this a priority before now?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Chair, my colleague Ms. Michaud is right to say that there's a history and a context behind the introduction of this bill.

As minister, I am very interested in working with you and all members of Parliament to get this bill passed for the same reasons you have outlined. We have to accept the findings of the former commissions, such as Justice O'Connor's, and those of the commission that just took place in Nova Scotia, which said that we need to make the complaints process more independent in order to reinforce the confidence of all Canadians.

If you have any suggestions or amendments, I'm always open to them, but I feel it's a good bill. This is a historic bill. It will do a much better job of protecting public safety institutions and Canadians.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

You talk about transparency and public confidence in Canada's public safety institutions.

Do you think it's important to restore the public's confidence in their institutions in light of the Maher Arar case in 2004, and the many complaints filed in recent years? Even though there was a slight dip in international travel during the pandemic, we've seen an increase in public complaints against the Canada Border Services Agency. That's what Radio‑Canada reported.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I think it's fair to say that we still face some challenges. Take, for example, the issue of systemic racism, which I mentioned in response to Mr. Noormohamed, or the issue of resources for institutions. These issues have had an impact on how Canadians interact with the RCMP and the CBSA.

However, this bill is not just about a process. It also provides transparency. The powers of this new commission will enable it to look at the facts and systemic issues, and then make recommendations to the two organizations this bill involves.

I hope this will strengthen the confidence of all Canadians.