Public Safety Committee on Oct. 30th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

I call this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 10 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Before introducing our distinguished guests and giving them the opportunity to speak about the important topic of this meeting, I would like to invite Mr. Ramsay, following our final discussion last Tuesday, to clarify the work on Bill C‑12.

[Jacques Ramsay, Liberal, La Prairie—Atateken, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Following the informal discussions that we've had since Tuesday, I would like to amend the motion on Bill C‑12 to read as follows:

Notwithstanding the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, October 28, 2025, in relation to consideration of the Bill C‑12, An Act respecting certain measures relating to the security of Canada's borders and the integrity of the Canadian immigration system and respecting other related security measures; That the committee conduct clause‑by‑clause consideration of the Bill after the conclusion of witness testimony on the fourth meeting; and That the committee do not adjourn until clause‑by‑clause is completed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

I see that Mrs. DeBellefeuille would like to speak. Mr. Caputo will speak next.

Mrs. DeBellefeuille, we're listening.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a point of order.

We aren't discussing committee business. We're here to study Bill C‑8.

We have a motion regarding the consideration of Bill C‑12. We debated, amended and passed this motion last Tuesday. As a result, I don't think that it's proper procedure for us to—this morning, in front of our witnesses and in public—reconsider a decision made on Tuesday.

Mr. Chair, remember that we spent half an hour on Tuesday planning the work on the consideration of Bill C‑12, and we came to an agreement. I find it unacceptable to continue the discussion this morning.

I'm raising a point of order because this is off topic. We're studying Bill C‑8, which has nothing to do with Bill C‑12.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

The chair has in fact decided to resolve this issue because the clerk and the parliamentary analysts urgently need an idea of what lies ahead. For the sake of efficiency, I would like the committee to clear up any confusion that arose on Tuesday, given that we didn't take enough time for this discussion on Tuesday.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

Mr. Chair, I find it difficult to accept your explanation. After debating the motion for half an hour, we came to an agreement. You now want us to quickly agree on something that was debated for 30 minutes.

Mr. Chair, I gather that there have been discussions, that the Conservatives probably agree with your proposal and that you feel comfortable not complying with the Standing Orders. Personally, if I may say so, I think that this is a poor way to run the committee.

I'm not holding this against you personally. You're stuck in a bit of a bind. You decided to leave it off the committee's agenda so that we would have time to come to an agreement. However, this morning, because a negotiation took place between the Liberals and the Conservatives, you can't suddenly ask me to meekly accept this change in three or four minutes without speaking up.

This is out of order and off topic. I challenge your ruling.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have every right to express your opinion on this matter. All these discussions are the result of conversations held outside this committee. However, they also take into account all the committee business, including business that matters even more to you.

I know that conversations took place. We may soon get to Bill C‑8 and the border study, which we would like to complete shortly.

We must take all these factors into consideration to make the committee's work as effective as possible. I personally believe that, in order to help the clerk, the analysts and the members do their jobs properly, it would be useful to clear up this confusion now.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

I'm simply telling you that I find this unacceptable.

I think that we reached a good consensus at the last meeting. The Conservatives are prepared to support the amendment. I take that for granted. The Liberals feel comfortable revisiting an issue resolved at the last meeting. This is basically a test of confidence.

The Bloc Québécois has no intention of blocking Bill C‑12. We told you this, and we even facilitated the debate. We don't intend to filibuster or to move a bundle of amendments. Everyone agrees on this. I have the impression that the same applies to the Conservatives.

I'm arguing on principle. If you proceed as you intend to do today, it will set a precedent.

You're in charge of maintaining order and following procedure. I expect you to refrain from participating in informal partisan discussions. You must remain neutral.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

You're absolutely right.

Mrs. DeBellefeuille, rest assured that I'm not involved in these discussions. I receive the conclusions and instructions from all committee members. My job is to help you and us, as members of Parliament, do the best job possible. We must strike a certain balance and sometimes make compromises.

If we want to proceed with the study of Bill C‑12 and Bill C‑8 and complete the critical study on border management, the analysts and the clerk must be able to do their job effectively. This is why I'm providing this opportunity this morning.

Mr. Caputo has the floor.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Mrs. DeBellefeuille. I understand your position.

I need, hopefully, one minute to very clearly, I hope, lay out the Conservative position.

Conservatives will agree to this motion on Bill C-12—this is where we get into Bill C-8—as long as it is clear that the minister appears on Bill C-12 and Bill C-8 separately. I have assurance from my colleagues, as I understand it, that the minister will appear for one meeting on Bill C-12 and one meeting on Bill C-8. If that's the case, we can agree to both.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Mr. Ramsay has the floor.

[Jacques Ramsay, Liberal, La Prairie—Atateken, QC]

Mr. Caputo, we understood that it would be two hours overall, one hour for Bill C-12 and one hour for Bill C-8. Maybe you could simply let the committee know why you want it to be at two separate times.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC]

To my understanding, this was an agreement with the House leaders, so that's why. I'm just trying to give effect to the agreement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

The usual procedure of committee business is to have ministers appear for one hour on a particular bill or on a particular study, which he will do. When that will happen is yet to be determined, but he will be here for one hour for Bill C-8. He has also committed to be here for one hour for Bill C-12.

Mr. Ramsay.

[Jacques Ramsay, Liberal, La Prairie—Atateken, QC]

We will agree with Mr. Caputo. If that's what the Conservatives want, we'll have the minister appearing on two separate occasions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Okay. That's not only what the Conservatives want; it's also normal procedure. Sometimes it may not be possible to abide by it, but that's what the expectation would be, in most cases.

That said, I can proceed to the vote on the motion moved on Bill C‑12.

Who agrees with this motion on Bill C‑12?

Who disagrees with this motion on Bill C‑12?

Mr. Ramsay, would you like to speak about Bill C‑8, which is on today's agenda for discussion?

[Jacques Ramsay, Liberal, La Prairie—Atateken, QC]

Yes, since Mr. Caputo brought up the topic.

We also have a motion regarding Bill C‑8, which was sent to the Conservatives and the Bloc Québécois. It reads as follows:

That, in relation to the study of Bill C‑8, An Act respecting cyber security, amending the Telecommunications Act and making consequential amendments to other Acts, the committee dedicate four meetings to the hearing of witnesses, including the Minister of Public Safety; That the committee dedicate no more than two meetings to clause‑by‑clause consideration; and That the committee complete the remaining one meeting of the Canada‑United States border management study, and provide drafting instructions to the analysts, in accordance with the motion adopted on Thursday, September 18, 2025, before resuming the study of Bill C‑8.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay.

Is there any unanimous agreement on this motion?

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

Is the Minister of Industry expected to appear? Bill C‑8 gives her considerable power. If not, I'll move an amendment.

The motion read by Mr. Ramsay doesn't seem to mention anything about this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

In the motion that I have and that was given to you, I hope—

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

That isn't what was given to me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

The motion states “that the committee dedicate four meetings to the hearing of witnesses, including the Minister of Public Safety” and “that the committee dedicate no more than two meetings to clause‑by‑clause consideration”.

The Minister of Industry isn't included.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

Exactly.

Since I see that the Minister of Industry isn't included in the motion, I would like to move an amendment.

I believe that Bill C‑8 grants considerable power to the Minister of Industry, who manages telecommunications. I think that it would be reasonable for her to appear before the committee to answer our questions for an hour.

I would like to move an amendment to the motion in order for the minister to appear.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

As we know, the committee doesn't have the power to compel a minister to appear.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

The legislation referred to in the bill concerns her department.