Public Safety Committee on Oct. 21st, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bieger.

Mrs. DeBellefeuille for six minutes.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm pleased to see we share the same opinion that the Canada Border Services Agency must obviously secure the borders, but also facilitate the movement of goods and people to the United States. The purpose of our meeting today is to consider how we can further secure the border without hindering trade between the United States and Canada. We know that local communities often have good ideas. They use common sense, and often act more quickly than government or the machinery of government can, to implement new structures or innovate.

My question is for Mr. Boyle. What I'm asking you today relates to our study. We're seeking recommendations on how to secure the border while ensuring that trade isn't impeded and that the movement of people and goods between the two countries is facilitated.

Do you have any specific recommendations we could implement to improve a situation that, in my opinion, requires change and innovation?

[Thomas Boyle]

I think one of the recurring themes in my testimony today is that Canada needs to invest in technology.

Oftentimes, the U.S. is a trailblazer. Customs and security in the United States are trailblazers in this type of technology. The use of drive-through, non-intrusive inspection systems like the one that I explained is really setting the standard for 100% scanning of all vehicles and the finding of all sorts of smuggling and other sorts of nefarious acts.

Currently, CBSA uses non-intrusive inspection. However, it is done in a static role. A truck will pull into a location, and a mobile unit—what they call a VACIS unit—will scan back and forth on the truck. It accomplishes its goal; however, it's very time-consuming, and it requires a lot of queuing and waiting by the truckers.

For Canada to improve, CBSA, at many of its borders, should adopt something along the lines of what the U.S. is now proposing, particularly on the southern border, and first here on the northern border at the Peace Bridge.

One other area that can be helpful is facial matching. Again, we see this in the airport environment, where time is saved when a passenger can just have their face scanned and the scan is matched to a passport or another form of identification. Doing that at a border can also help.

Again, this type of technology does not take away jobs; it enhances the ability of CBSA agents to actually do their job more efficiently and be able to focus their attention on those other things that are not just checking a box.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

We're waiting for the budget, and we know that it provides for the hiring of 1,000 new officers. However, we don't know how many of them will be assigned to border control; that has yet to be determined. Will there be 1,000 or 800? What will their role be? Where will they be deployed?

On the other hand, as you mentioned, we know the technology isn't intended to prevent officers from doing their job, but rather to further investigations and inquiries conducted at the border, so that human resources can be freed up to do the rest of their work, including analyzing goods and trucks, as you so aptly put it.

What struck me about your testimony was that you were innovative. You proposed a new way of doing things, but the decisions and the process to ultimately install the high-performance x-ray portal, which will be funded by the United States, met with resistance because you were stepping outside the established framework. It was difficult to get permission for your tool, which aims to increase efficiency and security, because existing laws and regulations did not provide for this kind of exception.

What suggestions could you make to accelerate the reflection and decision-making process when a local organization proposes a good idea that we want to implement to improve and optimize security?

[Thomas Boyle]

That's a wonderful question. Again, that's a question for any organization that reaches out and sees innovation.

These things take time. We understand that. Certainly, I tip my hat to the people at CNSC, because they have been doing their due diligence within the framework and the application they're given. They've invested in coming to our facility, as well as going to the U.S. southern border, to look at this technology.

Again, at some point, someone needs to be the trailblazer, and the hope is that this is not a one-off, that this is not just a single occurrence, and that the regulatory agencies that will eventually, hopefully, approve this permit will then change their mindset and change the regulations to become more encompassing of this type of approach.

Therefore, again, it takes time. There is a learning curve, and certainly the person who is on the front line of this is always the one who needs to wait the most, but again, CNSC is doing what it needs to do. We hope CNSC does it as well as it possibly can so that the next applicant that goes through this, namely CBSA, will benefit from the work we've done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you.

Let me turn now to MP Au for five minutes.

[Chak Au, Conservative, Richmond Centre—Marpole, BC]

Thank you.

First of all, thank you to Mr. Boyle and Mr. Bieger for your presentations.

Both of you mentioned that you are trying to upgrade the technology and infrastructure to make our borders more secure at the same time as being efficient. While we are doing that, the criminals are also doing that, correct? They're trying to upgrade their technology as well. Are we trying to catch up with what they are doing? Are we on top of these people? Are there any gaps that you think we have to fill?

This is a question for both gentlemen.

[Thomas Boyle]

If you don't mind, I'll answer first in a very quick answer to you. We're landlords. Security is not our business. It's not in our mission statement.

For me to opine on how to make more effectual the Canadian and U.S. governments in security...I unfortunately can't really offer anything. As I said, we're landlords. We provide a bridge. We provide plazas and booths. I apologize, but it's not really in my area of expertise.

[Kenneth Bieger]

I want to add just a couple of things.

Thinking outside the box was discussed. I think that should be a definite direction for this committee. There may be things that have been done for a while that need to be looked at. For example, we see one, and again, it may not be at the top of the list of major issues, but we see a jurisdictional issue.

I listened to Mark Weber, a prior witness, who is the union head for CBSA, say that he feels his frontline officers aren't able to do certain things. We also see that as a port operator. There are situations that may be different, let's say, on the U.S. side versus Canada.

If an issue arises on our bridge, we're directed to call the local law enforcement. We're actually calling regional police or the RCMP, and there may be a time delay in getting to the border to handle an issue. That's something that may have been done for a while, but again, I did hear Mark Weber complain about it from his perspective.

We just don't understand it ourselves, but that's one small area, I guess, that I would take a look at and ask why it is that we have CBSA officers who have guns and are able to...but they must be getting told as part of their mandate not to confront anyone, that local law enforcement has to be called.

That's a small issue, but thinking outside of the box I think is something that we all can do. I think all the port operators are willing to get involved in any type of pilot program to assist with any type of infrastructure, move things forward faster and experiment.

I'll take Queenston Plaza, for example. We have eight truck bays. Before this testimony, I asked how often they are used. Typically, I think the most anybody has ever seen is four truck bays being used at one time, and that's extremely unusual.

We have infrastructure. We have facilities. We just need to find a way to use them. Obviously, an additional 1,000 officers will help, but more than the 1,000 officers, improving any of the IT work or anything along that side is going to be critical.

[Chak Au, Conservative, Richmond Centre—Marpole, BC]

Again, in comparison to south of the border, how are we doing in our job? Are we up to the standard? Are we doing as well as what they are doing south of the border?

Mr. Boyle, you mentioned the 100% scanning of outgoing cargo to the States. Do we have any plans for something similar in Canada? If not, why not?

[Thomas Boyle]

It's interesting. I'll answer just quickly.

On the differences right now between the U.S. southern border and the U.S. northern border, they are far different in terms of lot of the issues that might arise with border security.

CBSA, as I mentioned, has taken part in the review and has been to our site and has visited the U.S. southern border to review those facilities I just spoke about. The intent, I believe, is that they're looking to adopt this in Canada as well, which would be a great stride forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Wonderful. Thank you for that.

Let us turn to MP Ehsassi for five minutes.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Allow me to join my colleagues in thanking our two witnesses. Your testimony has been very helpful.

Mr. Bieger, in your opening remarks, you alluded to the fact that there were staffing issues for both U.S. border officials and Canadian border officials, I assume. Could you elaborate on that and perhaps provide us some insights as to what you think those ongoing challenges have been?

[Kenneth Bieger]

In the last couple of years, because of the additional officers we received from the Gordie Howe training project, the Canadian side has been actually better versus the U.S. side in terms of the number of officers.

To give you an idea, on the Canadian side, we may have 10 auto inspection lanes and five commercial truck lanes at Queenston. You may see three or four at a time being utilized. Many times on the U.S. side, there may be only two or three open, when we have 15 lanes. Again, we have the infrastructure. It's just not being manned on a primary lane.

This was discussed by one of the witnesses at the last session. Getting people at the primary lanes is critical on both sides to be moving through this. It may be one of those things that CBSA—again, thinking outside the box—will look at in their overall business plan.

I have a quick suggestion on something like that. I'll give you a personal example, which wasn't Canadian bound. This was U.S. bound. I was in line and waited 10 minutes for an officer to process somebody, only to let them go through.

I think it makes more sense to interview somebody at the line for a minute and, if you have a problem, send them to secondary. Maybe you have an expedited secondary that doesn't handle all the problems. Maybe they don't have to go inside secondary. Maybe it's like a drive-through and you have a couple of people who are experts who can ask questions and determine whether somebody needs to go into the building and be investigated more.

It's just little things like that. I think everybody should be thinking outside the box.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you for that. It's good to hear that on our side it appears to you that we're doing a better job.

However, I'm not quite sure that I understand what the challenge is. Is it, insofar as you are privy to those conversations and can tell, a resource allocation issue? Is it a training issue? What do you think it is?

[Kenneth Bieger]

Definitely, in the nine years I've been doing this, where I've seen improvement is in quantifying the delays and where we're at. When I first started in this position, the metrics were extremely rare and weren't being shared. We're seeing more metric-based management, let's say, on both sides of the border, where they are watching it. They're looking at the busy times in crossing the borders, whether there is a Buffalo Bills game or not. There is no question that locally they are on top of that and watching it.

I can't really speak much about the set-up at CBSA. Again, I know that Mark Weber from the CBSA union had an issue between middle management and line people. All I can say from our side—I can't tell you about their structure and how it works and how efficient it is—is that we just need more people in the primary inspection lanes.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Understood. Thank you for that.

Mr. Boyle, did you want to add anything to that?

[Thomas Boyle]

I will add quickly to that, if you don't mind.

Typically, we get an answer from CBSA and U.S. Customs that there should be an expectation of delay at the border. This is a border crossing, after all. You are heading into a new country.

I will echo what Mr. Bieger had to say about the recent years with CBSA staffing. We've been beneficiaries of the years that it has taken for the Gordie Howe bridge to come online and the staffing that CBSA had allocated to the Gordie Howe bridge—obviously the bridge is not functioning right now—and CBSA port leadership has been able to benefit from those officers who have been in the training program and waiting to man those booths at the Gordie Howe International Bridge.

Our concern is that when that bridge does come online, those officers will then be sent to their rightful jobs and local port management will be left with fewer resources. We will see again those types of backups we've had in years past due to low staffing, both on the Canadian side and on the U.S. side. It fluctuates.

Again, in recent years, we have been very fortunate. Our concern is that next year, when Gordie Howe bridge does come online, staffing will be short at the Niagara bridges.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Understood, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

I'm sorry, MP Ehsassi. The time is up.

We'll now give the floor to Mrs. DeBellefeuille.

You have two and a half minutes.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. Bieger.

You talked about an innovative solution, which is being proposed by the Customs and Immigration Union representing Canada Border Services Agency officers, as well as my political party. This proposal states that officers with the Canada Border Services Agency have received all the necessary training, including firearms training, to be able to intervene inside and outside their border crossing to intercept an individual or manage an emergency while waiting for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to arrive, for example.

You said it was just a small suggestion, but it's a way for our country and for border service officers to optimize their presence and ensure increased surveillance along the border.

Would you be prepared to make a recommendation to the committee that the Canada Border Services Agency be allowed to grant our border services officers this flexibility in the work they do outside their crossing?

[Kenneth Bieger]

I would highly recommend emulating the U.S. model in terms of allowing the officers to do more than they're currently doing on the Canadian side. I think that having to call the RCMP for issues....

We also have our Whirlpool bridge. We have train tracks on the second level. We occasionally have people crossing or trying to cross illegally using the train tracks. We have CBSA in a building, maybe on the first floor, looking at securing the border but not securing the bridge deck above it. We have to call the RCMP and notify them.

Between our three bridges, we have about 450 cameras, and we have sensors. We have a high-tech security system. We work with CBSA all the time on this, and we work with the local law enforcement, but there seems to be a disconnect. I think that if they were able to do more than what they're currently doing, you wouldn't have to go to three different agencies to try to get something resolved.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bieger.

I'd now invite Mr. Davies to speak for five minutes.

[Fred Davies, Conservative, Niagara South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have just a bit of commentary on this because it's really important that this is on the record.

This scanning technology, which is generally referred to as multi-energy portal technology, is absolutely critical for scanning containers and commercial vehicles. By deploying this at the Peace Bridge the first time on Canadian soil.... Mr. Boyle, when you dive into this technology, what is your opinion on this? I consider that this technology needs to be deployed in every seaport, including the ports of Montreal, Vancouver and Halifax.

Every export port in Canada needs to have this technology because it instantaneously can determine, for example, whether there are stolen vehicles in containers that are going into European or other export markets. We've heard, for example, that fewer than 10% of all the containers in the Port of Montreal are actually inspected. This takes the HR out of it. Although it doesn't necessarily affect jobs, it instantaneously provides 100% accurate data on what's in that container.

Mr. Boyle, do you think that would have an enormous impact in other areas, in other export ports in Canada?

[Thomas Boyle]

Absolutely. Certainly, it's a game-changer in the land border crossing, but it's applicable in ports. It's applicable in airports as well.

I want to say again that part of my statement was that this does not take away jobs; it gives tools to those people. A scan, in and of itself, is useless unless you have an officer who is reviewing that scan and is able to identify anomalies that may occur within a cargo. Aided by things such as artificial intelligence, this really assists in being able to identify things that look out of the ordinary, and then you can focus your resources on inspecting those areas. For example, in a cargo container, you don't have to tear the entire cargo container apart; you can focus on an area that has been identified in a scan, saving time and being much more efficient in what you do.