Status of Women Committee on March 24th, 2010

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

That's very interesting. I wanted to ask this, too. I remember some years ago there was a great whoop-de-do, a discussion, about women firefighters. The wisdom, and I use that term loosely, of the day was that women were not big enough and they couldn't do the job because they didn't have the same physical prowess.

The irony, of course, was that every woman who was making the transition to the more formal part of the educational process had already passed all the physical requirements and could indeed pull people out of buildings and use a fire hose just as effectively as men.

It brings me to this issue about the backlash and what you said about quotas or creating a situation where women needed to be hired and the backlash. If there isn't that encouragement, if there isn't that kind of opening of the door, then women aren't going to enter in. How do you create a balance there?

[Rebecca McDiarmid]

By creating a welcoming work environment for everyone. If changes are made to the way child care is handled so that everyone is able to have access to it--to extend child care hours--that is going to increase the quality of life for everyone.

Similarly, when I speak to schools or to other organizations about the possibility of construction, I'll answer questions about being a woman in construction if I'm asked them. Most of my presentation is about working in construction as a person. That is one of the things that I think has served me well in my career, not dwelling on the fact that I'm different, but focusing on the fact that we're all here to do a job and I'm just another person on-site.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

[Mary Clarke, Community Outreach Coordinator, Educational Resource Centre, Women in Resource Development Corporation]

I'd like to address that if I could. As a certified firefighter, we get that issue all the time, but the way in which we address it is through some gender awareness in fire departments and in community, and also to point out that not every job of firefighter is to bring out that person; it's also in the operation of the pumper truck, the driving of the pumper truck. There are all kinds of other tasks--safety, paramedics--that are engaged in firefighting, so we address it through that manner.

The other thing is that with our organization we have 55 women role models on our roster right now, and my full-time job is going to schools and doing programs with young girls and young women to encourage them to go into a lot of these non-traditional careers and jobs. We also believe that if they see women in those jobs they are more accepting of them, and there's nothing better than to bring a group of girls to the fire field and show them how to use a fire extinguisher, to show them that they too can do it.

Thank you.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate that, and I wish you even more success with that, because the argument or the discussion some years ago was very frustrating in regard to opening those doors for women.

I have another question. One of the things we heard was that while young women may well be encouraged to take training, once they are finished that training there is a problem in terms of securing an apprenticeship, and even when they do secure that apprenticeship, once they get to the job site they might be relegated to lesser-paying jobs because for whatever reason they weren't given the opportunity.

Is that something you're seeing? Is it something we need to really pursue in terms of our report?

[Ashley Turner]

Yes, this is certainly an issue that we have been seeing with the women we work with and with women in general. As I mentioned around unions, there are seniority lists that the unions and the industry within our province work with, and oftentimes women are at the bottom of that list. Therefore, it is difficult for them to get placed in a high-skills position, and oftentimes, yes, if they do get placed in a job it may be in a lower-skills position due to a lack of experience because they've been at the bottom of that seniority list.

So it's something we're working on with unions, to try to find a way around that in order to give equal opportunities to both men and women in gaining experience in trades, for example.

[Rebecca McDiarmid]

If I might add to that, this might be an issue that is well addressed by having positive role models for women out there and having venues for women who are just joining the construction trades or non-traditional trades to speak to more experienced women. Women in general aren't as...I'm not going to say ambitious, but less insistent when it comes to getting more responsibility. Women will tend to want to earn the place as opposed to get the place and then prove that they can do it, whereas men tend to attack it from the other side.

So it could help to have a role model who is able to demonstrate that, no, out of school you should be able to do this, this, and this, and if your supervisor isn't allowing you to do that, you need to talk to him about it or you need to talk to his boss about it, to see what you can do to get into a role that will better fulfill your needs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

We now move to a second round. For the sake of the witnesses, I just want to let you know that in the second round it's now a five-minute round, both for questions and answers.

We'll begin the round with Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you, Madam Chair. You're doing a great job.

I have a comment first. In a previous life, over 20 years ago, I brought a program called Women do Math to my riding, the Yukon, and we had hundreds of girls and young women in high school or junior high listen to professionals in the sciences and maths in the riding, and it was very popular and very successful. In fact, there's one coming up this Saturday, a similar thing. I would encourage any community that doesn't do such an event to do it. It's very workable.

I'm just curious as to whether any of the witnesses have any stats on absenteeism. Are men or women showing up for the same amount of time at work? I'm just talking about for regular reasons; I'm not talking about child bearing or anything because I'm going to talk about that later.

[Rebecca McDiarmid]

Do men spend more time in the office or on the site as opposed to women?

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

No, are they away from work more often? Is there any—

[Rebecca McDiarmid]

I have no statistics on that.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Okay.

Mary Clarke, I have a—

[Ashley Turner]

I don't have statistics either.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Okay.

I have a question for Mary Clarke. Child bearing, when it interrupts a career, obviously could cause problems with retention, women keeping their jobs. Has that caused problems? What are some of the best practice solutions that you've seen employers put into place so it doesn't cause a problem, or do you have suggestions that the government could do to help?

[Mary Clarke]

I'm not too knowledgeable on the stats, but in the instances I've heard of, employers have been very accommodating. We have some policies and careers where there is the right to accommodate. If they are off for much time, they will have someone do it. Or they can go on a different hour shift or a reduced work week, this sort of thing.

Some of the things we have now with the parental leave have helped a bit. We're finding that more of the men are staying home to handle some of the issues, as opposed to the women being gone constantly. A couple of places here have day cares at their employment so they can bring their children to the work sites. It's getting to be less of an issue.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Rebecca, are there any innovative solutions to either...? You mentioned the child care problem, the 7:30 in the morning problem, or when a woman takes a couple of years off for child bearing.

[Rebecca McDiarmid]

I think my colleague in Newfoundland hit the nail on the head there. A lot of programs have been implemented by individual companies to particularly accommodate paternal leave. More and more guys are taking advantage of that, which is equalizing the playing field.

In addition, the more opportunities that companies have to provide child care close to the work sites, the more convenient and less destructive it is to the family lives of the individuals involved.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

You mentioned—

[Ashley Turner]

If I could interject, in research I've done on the underrepresentation of women in the offshore industry, many women mentioned that they felt taking maternity leave could hinder their seniority and ability to become promoted into a higher-level position. Therefore, from a policy standpoint, I would certainly recommend that there be policies in place to ensure that this cannot happen, and that maternity leave cannot be a ground to affect seniority, promotion, as well as hiring.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I have a quick question, Ashley. You mentioned new careers in renewable resources. Could you mention which renewable resources you're working with?

[Ashley Turner]

Yes, natural resources is what I was referring to, first of all. We work in the oil and gas industry, the mining industry, and all facets, including the fisheries and forestry as well.

As Mary is heading our Girls in Renewable Energy and Alternative Technologies program, I believe she could tell you a little more than I could about renewable resources.

[Mary Clarke]

Again, in renewable resources it's the same thing. It's having a way that if some of the electricians and these people go off for maternity leave they don't go to the bottom of the list to be called back. It's a union thing as well, I believe.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

We'll move to Ms. Wong.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

First of all, thank you very much for joining us for this very meaningful session. I come from the Lower Mainland. I represent Richmond, where probably a lot of you, especially Ms. McDiarmid, come from.

I understand that the real estate market is still booming and there are still builders doing a lot of construction work. Does that mean you may be able to recruit more members who are now in the construction area?