Transport Committee on May 4th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

Monsieur Gaudet.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Dunlap, in your opinion, it takes 45 seconds to do a body scan on each person. So, on a plane with 400 passengers, it would take 5 hours, without including the other checks, baggage, etc. Soon, it will be almost too much to take the plane: it won't make sense.

If I look at what happened on December 25, the individual who boarded a plane was already on the no-fly list. This means that some people did not do their jobs properly. In reality, everyone in the world is being penalized because one airport did not do its job properly. Everyone needs to hear this. People should not have to pay for a mistake that happened somewhere else. I don't remember where. In Holland? I don't know, it doesn't matter.

They are the ones who are mainly responsible and they should have their wrists slapped. We are paying for mistakes made by others.

How do you explain this?

[Kenneth Dunlap]

Well, what I would like to say on this is that the exact circumstances of Abdulmutallab's travel that we have had related to us indicate that in fact he was not on a no-fly list, a no-fly or selectee list, and that we was travelling with a valid U.S. visa that had been issued, I believe, in 2008. So in terms of the actual circumstances behind that crime, I would defer to someone who would know more--Transport or CATSA.

But what I would say is this. Schiphol airport has a well-deserved reputation for having very high security standards and for having a good staff, and I would say that if it can happen there, it could happen anywhere.

And that's why changes are needed. Schiphol does a very good job. It goes back to the old adage: don't throw stones if you live in a glass house. The method that he used to get through security is troubling, and obviously there was thought behind what he did, but I don't necessarily see it as a problem with Schiphol. I don't think it's a problem with Schiphol.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you.

I would like to come back to the issue of helicopters. Do helicopter pilots have the same kind of permit across the country? I know that driver's licences are valid across Canada. Perhaps it is the same.

[Sylvain Séguin]

Yes, a professional helicopter pilot obtains a basic licence. Furthermore, an annotation is added for each type of aircraft, or each type of helicopter. The pilot must take training and get the instructor's signature. Then, for night flights, the use of flight instruments and being the captain of a 9-passenger and up plane, and aircraft over 7,000 lb, another type of licence is needed. That is called an airline transport pilot licence.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Who is responsible for all those regulations? Is it Transport Canada?

[Sylvain Séguin]

Yes, regulations are the responsibility of Transport Canada, but companies have some responsibilities, such as instructors, for example. The operators assume a portion of that responsibility.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

How is it that there is no simulator?

[Sylvain Séguin]

The problems regarding simulators are the costs and return on capital investment. For large aircraft, the manufacturers will build the simulator at the same time as they produce the aircraft. As soon as the aircraft is delivered, the simulators are available. With regard to small helicopters, however, the simulator costs more than the helicopter does. For example, a small piston helicopter costs $400,000 and the simulator might cost $1 million or $2 million.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I am talking about taking a course with simulation exercises.

[Sylvain Séguin]

Yes.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I am not talking about doing it in the helicopter, but rather about taking at least one course that is the same for everyone. I have a driver's licence, and I take the same course as everybody else who has one. I do not drive trucks. I wouldn't take a truck or motorcycle driver's education course, but everybody takes the same basic course.

Why is it not the same thing for helicopter pilots?

[Sylvain Séguin]

There is a basic training course; however, depending on the type of aircraft and the type of responsibility, a more specialized training course will be provided. With regard to large aircraft, pilots need to have specialized training. It's the same thing for planes. Pilots start off flying small planes then get training on simulators for a Boeing or an Airbus, for example.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Merci.

Mr. Mayes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to direct my first question to Mr. Chowdhury.

In regard to one of the challenges in getting the outcomes that you're looking at in a reduction of accidents, I see the use of helicopters as just not taking passengers from A to B, as in the airline industry. They do that, but quite often they're doing more of what I call industrial work as far as lifting things, moving things, and multiple takeoffs and landings are concerned, and I would say that would pose a greater hazard.

Have you, in your data, separated those functions? In Vancouver, I would not consider moving passengers from Vancouver to Victoria as dangerous as logging off the hills on the coast of British Columbia.

[Somen Chowdhury]

Yes, we have. We have data based on what we call missions. There is the HEMS mission, which is the emergency medical system. There are logging missions and all types of missions, including training. Training is one of the vulnerable areas for accidents.

All of that has been done. It's in the reports and the documentation. I just couldn't present it to you, given the time constraints, with the details. I put a summary together.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I guess the question I'm asking is whether you are going to try to separate that information. Since you have this intent to reduce the number of accidents over time and implement a program, are you going to be able to separate the two functions or uses of the helicopter so that you can identify where the problem is?

[Somen Chowdhury]

Even in these high-risk missions, for example, such as training, logging, or carrying goods on hooks, the common thread is situational awareness; we assembled all the problem statements and they all line up. When a pilot is carrying a hook, he can't see what's trailing behind him. Also, quite often, they get stuck. Even in the accident we had in Kandahar with the 412 Griffon, it was the skid gear that got stuck. That's the report I got. This is situational awareness.

That has been summarized in the slides I presented to you. These standard problem statements line up, and the solution may be to go back again and look specifically at the mission. We have to take the solution back to the mission. In other words, you have to put in other devices--mechanical devices, optical devices, pilot-aid devices, or cameras--to see the load hanging behind and things like that. The solution might develop, but the problem statements come down to the same trend, actually.

I ask that you visit the site, www.ihst.org. All the reports are available there. We can send them to you electronically. There are thick volumes of studies that have been done for the U.S. database. The Canadian report I have submitted to Madame Charron; she will distribute it tomorrow, I guess. It's in English right now, but it'll be in French, so you will have them all.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

My next question is for Mr. Dunlap. In the discussion we had with Mr. Sela, our witness from Israel, we talked a little bit about perimeter security. That's a noble venture, because what we're trying to do is protect the passenger on the airplane. The flight of the airplane is what we're protecting and there's also the security of the airport, the terminal.

I'm just wondering if you have some comments on that. Do you think that is something we should be focusing on more as far as the big package goes or should it be strictly the aircraft?

[Kenneth Dunlap]

I'd like to give you a global answer and then defer to NACC, which I believe is going to be here testifying on Thursday and specifically addressing Canadian airports.

Globally, what IATA has seen is that perimeter security is the weak point across very many airports. There are underdeveloped countries that don't have the infrastructure; the fences get stolen. But critical questions need to be asked when you take a look at airport security, and the first is, at what point do you start?

There's a philosophy that says we start at the cockpit and work our way out and that's the best way to secure the aviation system. Others say they're going to start at the perimeter and work their way in. Certainly what the European Union has said in the last several years is that they're going to tighten down the airports. Also, the United States has said that they're going to increase the security patrols they have and increase the amount of security their employees experience.

As for what that balance is here in Canada, I would not be the best person to ask.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

With that, I'll thank our guests for being here today.

I know that you've had extenuating circumstances. You've made a great presentation and we thank you for that. We look forward to a final report with some input from you.

Thank you very much.

[Kenneth Dunlap]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

While our guests are departing, we will take a one-minute break and then come back and entertain the two motions before us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Moving into the second part of today's meeting, we have motions.

Joining us now is Ms. Chow. I understand that you have a couple of motions before us.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I do.