Transport Committee on Sept. 14th, 2017

[George Petsikas]

Specifically, I would say that we have to start by requiring airports to have emergency plans for that kind of situation. That is clear.

We have to know who is coordinating what, what the lines of communication are, and who you have to call when you need answers. These situations need a conductor, like an orchestra. The requirement should go to the airports because they have communication channels with all the suppliers.

We deal with one ground contractor in Ottawa, but there are several. That contractor said that it would take another 10 minutes, while another was saying something different. In those circumstances, confusion reigned.

Emergency plans must be in place in conjunction with the airlines and the other suppliers, and there must be lines of communication so that people know who to call. Then it has to be communicated to the entire industry.

In the case we were just talking about, our captain could have asked to be given an exact time for refuelling. He could have had a telephone number to reach people at the airport, who would have told him that it might take 45 minutes or it might take two hours. He could have made the decisions that his passengers needed. Unfortunately, there were no lines of communication like that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We'll have Mr. Aubin, and then if we have any time we will go back to any members who have a question.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

Let me fire off a series of quick questions.

As I understand your comments, it is not your responsibility; it should be coordinated by the airport. At the beginning of your remarks, you said that Bill C-49 contains no airport governance measures. Is that what you were alluding to?

[George Petsikas]

I do not want to say that we had no responsibility in the situation we were just talking about. Airlines are part of the overall system and we all have a common responsibility.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Bussières, at the beginning of your remarks, you said that Bill C-49 is silent on the matter of airport governance measures. Is that what you were alluding to?

[George Petsikas]

May I answer that for you?

No, that is not what we were alluding to. We were actually talking about the system of governance, the way in which airports are managed, how boards of directors are formed and who has the right to appoint administrators to those boards. As you know, airport authorities are governed by a board.

We consider that the issue should be addressed, but Bill C-49 does not address it.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Parry, I have a quick question for you. It will help me to confirm or refute some other testimony we have heard this week.

Does the funding you receive allow you to fulfill your mission? That is the simplest way to ask you the question.

[Neil Parry]

Thank you for the question.

As you know, CATSA receives its funding through parliamentary appropriations. I would answer, yes, we are able to carry out our mandate effectively with a focus on the highest levels of security for the travelling public. While CATSA does not have a mandated service level, we have been able to achieve a service level of 85% of passengers screened in 15 minutes or less, consistently for the last four years, based on the appropriations we've received.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

I have a question for Mr. Walker.

In some testimony yesterday, an amendment was proposed for a potential passenger bill of rights, to the effect that only flights leaving from Canada should be considered.

Let's say that I buy an air ticket that includes connections with joint venture airlines. My question is very simple: should the company I buy my ticket from provide the service from the beginning of the trip to the end, or can it toss it like a hot potato to the second, joint-venture company?

[Jeff Walker]

I heard about this earlier today. Our impression or our take on this is that it has to be the company that the person has purchased the ticket through that is, if you will, the shepherd of that. It may not be reasonable—let's say it's Air Canada and Lufthansa—for Air Canada to carry the ball if a connection with Lufthansa doesn't work, but it has to be somebody's job at Air Canada to shepherd the person to the appropriate process at Lufthansa so they know what their rights are.

Are they responsible? They are not necessarily for the cost, but I think they are for the shepherding of the person to the right place. That would be our take.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We have completed our first full round. I have Mr. Fraser, Mr. Badawey, Mr. Godin, and Mr. Hardie with additional questions.

Please try to be punctual to your point. We'll start with Mr. Fraser.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you. I don't think this will take a full six-minute round.

I'll pose the question to CAA, or the observation—

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Fraser, it's just one question.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Perfect.

Right now, I think we're in an era when the number of passengers is exploding. I expect that the trend will continue to grow. I think we're in a situation where, with increased knowledge, there will be more people making complaints. We're already starting to see that. I've been through exercises where it seemed too troublesome for me to claim it, where the payoff was limited to $100 on the terms of carriage. I'm hearing the airlines say, on the flip side, look, if compensation levels get too high under this new regime, it will drive up costs.

I'm wondering if you have any comments, when we're looking at this explosion of passengers and the assertion that this will drive up costs, whether the answer is not to say, “Look, if we establish standards, you have to meet them, even though you have razor-thin margins.”

If you could comment, that would be great.

[Jeff Walker]

You'd have to unpack the whole puzzle of the extent to which the margins are exactly as they've been described, etc. Again, from our point of view, the case is that the U.S. has this kind of system, the Europeans have this kind of system, and I'm not seeing their systems collapse and all the airlines going out of business in those places. There's an explosion in passengers on those routes just as there is in Canada.

That's my answer to that question.

[George Petsikas]

May I make a comment about the European system, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Go ahead.

[George Petsikas]

The European regulation right now is under enormous pressure from all groups as being a very poor piece of legislation. The European Council is trying desperately to amend it. They are not able to do it because of a problem they're having, a political problem. The European regulation is certainly not what I would call a success right now. It is understood that it has imposed destructive costs on industry. It goes above and beyond compensating passengers proportionately in terms of what they have experienced with regard to loss and inconvenience. Even in cases where delays are incurred to ensure that the aircraft is able to operate safely, airlines have been penalized under the system in Europe, which is roundly criticized as undercutting a comprehensive safety culture in aviation.

I would definitely take exception to people saying that the European model is working.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Badawey.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I just want to make a comment. We've been in this process for quite some time now, especially over this past week. As was mentioned earlier, this is not something that will be over tomorrow or next week or next month. This is an evolution of collaboration and, of course, partnership with all 338 members of the House, as well as the industry itself.

An assumptions report has been completed. It leads up to 2022. Within the report it recognizes the socio-economic, supply, and strategic factors. With that, it influences the forecasts of demand for air transportation—for example, gross domestic product, personal disposable income, adult population, economic outlet, airline yield, fleet route structure, average aircraft size, passenger load factors, labour costs and productivity, fuel costs, fuel efficiency, airline costs other than fuel and labour, passenger traffic allocation assumptions, and new technology. That's the basis of a strategic plan. That's the basis of next steps.

May I suggest the following? This committee is not going anywhere, at least for the next two years with the people around this table. Beyond that, there will probably be new people. The bottom line is that we have an opportunity here. Bill C-49 is the foundation that will be injected into the overall strategic plan as it relates to transportation. Let's all go back to our respective organizations and come up with tangible, pragmatic objectives attached to strategy. Let's attach actions to that, actions that are doable, actions that we can execute in the short and long term, based on the socio-economic, supply, and strategic factors I just outlined.

This is not done, gentlemen. Mr. Rock outlined 10 years ago that this was a challenge. I'm surprised it wasn't dealt with within that 10-year span. Unfortunately, it wasn't, but again, I don't want to talk about the past. I want to talk about the future. We have an opportunity here. Let's seize it and move forward with new recommendations, based on what you give us, in terms of the input we're looking for.

Again, Bill C-49 is here, but we have many days after that when we can help to strike that balance for people when it comes to performance, when it comes to passenger rights, when it comes to value, and when it comes to return, because we want you to do good just as much as you want to do good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you, Mr. Badawey.

Can we go on to Mr. Godin?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to make a quick comment; then I would like to ask Mr. Bergamini a question.

I share the opinion you expressed in your introduction when you said that you considered the government's approach was missing the mark. I think you have hit the nail on the head; it really is missing the mark. I respect Minister Garneau a great deal, but I think this is all for show and that there is no substance to the bill. Everything is just being shuffled to one side.

The Emerson report mentions that increases in fees and charges, as well as delays in security screening, are having an effect on all travellers and on the effectiveness of the industry.

How do you see the situation? Do you have the sense that the Emerson report is true?

[Massimo Bergamini]

Thank you for the question.

I feel that our carriers' daily experience shows us that the reality of delays....

Please excuse me, but I'm going to answer in the language of Shakespeare so that I can explain myself better.

As to delays at the front end—and this is the point that we were making—the travel experience doesn't start with check-in. There are all of those steps, and when you have a delay.... We appreciate what our colleagues at CATSA have done in very difficult conditions from a financial perspective and a planning perspective, but our organization, along with the airport council, have been pushing for regulated performance standards that eliminate those bottlenecks that have an impact not only on the passengers affected at that airport, but if there are delays, these delays cascade across the system domestically and internationally.

It really is important and in this sense I echo what has been said by my colleagues at Air Transat.

We have to address that question in terms of a complex ecosystem. The problem of funding the system absolutely requires attention. It is not enough to deal with the issue through regulations.

I am sure that you all remember the Walkerton tragedy. I have worked at municipal level. A good number of provincial governments across Canada have passed regulations in order to deal with situations like the one that occurred in Walkerton.

Provincial environment ministers were heros. They signed these tough new regulations, but they passed the bill on to municipalities that didn't have the resources or the capacity to implement those regulations in the first place. You have to look at these things from a holistic perspective. This is a regulatory exercise, in general we agree with it, but we absolutely have to look at the economic foundations of this industry if this is going to work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Petsikas, you were trying to make a point earlier on. You've made quite a few, but you had a particular one you wanted to add on. Did you get a chance to get that point done?