Evidence of meeting #39 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rail.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bruce Campbell  Adjunct Professor, Faculty of Environmental and Urban Change, York University, As an Individual
Terry Ugulini  Mayor, City of Thorold
Robert Bellefleur  Spokesperson, Coalition des citoyens et organismes engagés pour la sécurité ferroviaire de Lac-Mégantic
June Wolfrath  Member, Port Robinson Proud
Jonathan LePera  Member, Port Robinson Proud
Chad McPherson  Locomotive Engineer, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference
Isabelle Bleau  City Councillor, City of Boucherville, Comité ferroviaire de Boucherville
Cliff Penn  Member, Port Robinson Proud
François Beaulne  Chair, Subcommittee, Comité ferroviaire de Boucherville
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Michael MacPherson

4:45 p.m.

Spokesperson, Coalition des citoyens et organismes engagés pour la sécurité ferroviaire de Lac-Mégantic

Robert Bellefleur

The coalition consulted with a longtime engineer, and from what he confirmed, at this time, there's no way that the bypass will be built and operational by 2023.

The land has not even been acquired; the whole Canadian Transportation Agency evaluation process is not even done, the plans and specifications are not even drawn yet and people believe that this bypass will be built in two years. So we're very skeptical about that, but the sooner the better.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

I'd like to ask Ms. Bleau a question.

We had you in this week, but we didn't have a chance to talk much. You also lamented the lack of access to information about what is moving on the railways, particularly with respect to hazardous materials.

Can you tell me who has access to information, and when do they have access to it? What information do they have access to?

There is something mysterious about how information is passed on. I understand that some people have access, but apparently not everyone does.

4:45 p.m.

Isabelle Bleau City Councillor, City of Boucherville, Comité ferroviaire de Boucherville

Thank you for your question.

As far as the City of Boucherville is concerned, only the clerk is made aware of the products moving on the railroad tracks, which run through a very highly populated urban environment. She receives this information on a quarterly basis, three months after the materials have passed by on our tracks. It makes no sense.

We may have first responder systems, but we can't plan our first response when we learn three months later what has just gone by on our tracks.

The clerk has signed a confidentiality agreement. However, once a year CN sends us a report that can be disclosed to several people about what happened in the previous year. This morning, she sent me what she received in March about what passed by on the Boucherville tracks in 2020, and 89% of the cars contained hazardous materials. That's pretty disturbing.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Ms. Bleau, Mr. Bellefleur and Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

We're now going to move on to the NDP.

Mr. Bachrach, you have the floor for six minutes.

June 17th, 2021 / 4:45 p.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I too would like to thank all of the witnesses who are appearing today for their excellent testimony so far. It's evident to me that over the course of these past two meetings we're only just scratching the surface of what is a very important issue for so many people across the country. I hope we get to extend this work and learn even more about what needs to be done.

I'd like to begin with Mr. Campbell.

Mr. Campbell, you're familiar with the reports from the Auditor General and the office of the environment commissioner. When you read these reports, do they give you an impression that rail safety has adequately improved since the Lac-Mégantic disaster?

4:50 p.m.

Adjunct Professor, Faculty of Environmental and Urban Change, York University, As an Individual

Bruce Campbell

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

No, and the fact is that these concerns have been articulated going back to just after safety management systems came into force in 2002. There was the 2007 Railway Safety Act Review, and the 2013.... You know, there's been a whole series of reports and reviews by the Auditor General and by other bodies, and the incrementality of improvement is incredibly disturbing.

As I said, what your committee can do in the report is to examine and report on the extent to which this regime, the rail safety regime, is fulfilling its obligation to protect the public. If it's not, I think it should be suspended, and I think conventional prescriptive regulations should be in place until the resources are there and everything is in place to ensure that safety management systems are truly minimizing the risks to rail safety.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Thanks, Mr. Campbell.

We've talked a fair bit about safety management systems, but I want to ensure that in this study we're getting right to the nub of the issue. Could you tell us why the way in which the government and the rail companies utilize safety management systems poses a problem when it comes to rail safety?

4:50 p.m.

Adjunct Professor, Faculty of Environmental and Urban Change, York University, As an Individual

Bruce Campbell

In my opening I highlighted a few safety risks that are outstanding and that have been outstanding for a long time. I've characterized the relationship between the industry and Transport Canada as one of capture and complicity, and that's the power relationship between the two. I could go on and talk to you about what capture means, but I probably don't have time in this six-minute session to do that. It is a very serious issue that needs to be rebalanced. The relationship needs to be rebalanced, and I have a lot of recommendations for doing that.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

In your opinion is Transport Canada adequately resourced to carry out its role as the regulator of Canada's railroads and to protect communities and citizens when it comes to the operation of rail transport?

4:50 p.m.

Adjunct Professor, Faculty of Environmental and Urban Change, York University, As an Individual

Bruce Campbell

I heard the ministry in the last session say that it was adequately resourced, but I'm skeptical when I look at what's happened over the last four decades. In the infamous Paul Martin budget, Transport Canada resources were cut by over 50%, especially with respect to regulatory aspects. I tend to be reminded of what Justice Moshansky said when he appeared before the committee in 2017. He was the justice who headed the commission for the Dryden air crash inquiry and he basically said the root cause of the Dryden crash was the lack of resources. He said it remains today as a sword of Damocles, hanging over the Canadian air-travelling public. I believe it applies equally to the rail sector.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

We've heard a bit about fatigue management. This is an issue that is relevant not only for rail communities and communities along the rail corridors, but most specifically for rail workers, the people who work on the trains. It's been identified by the Transportation Safety Board as a concern since 1994. Why hasn't this been dealt with, and what needs to happen to adequately deal with fatigue management today?

4:55 p.m.

Adjunct Professor, Faculty of Environmental and Urban Change, York University, As an Individual

Bruce Campbell

That's the question. As a locomotive engineer, maybe Mr. McPherson is better placed to answer that question.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Chair, could we flip it over to Mr. McPherson?

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Mr. McPherson, answer quickly, please.

4:55 p.m.

Locomotive Engineer, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference

Chad McPherson

I apologize. I had some issues with the microphone.

I heard “fatigue management plan” and a question about what has been done.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Well, the question is what needs to be done. What isn't being done that should be?

4:55 p.m.

Locomotive Engineer, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference

Chad McPherson

It's about addressing fatigue in the workplace.

As a locomotive engineer, I am constantly fatigued. I tell people that my life consists of a series of naps. The unscheduled lifestyle that we live and the regular train lineups that are erratic and make it hard to decipher when I should be rested are the main problem.

We have train lineups, and then there is fear of reprisal. If I make myself unavailable, which is the right, healthy choice to make, there is a fear of some sort of reprisal or reprimand from the company. In my opinion, a lot of people are going to work tired because they're afraid to be disciplined.

On the other hand, there is some greed involved on a personal level. There are some people who will go to work tired just to make more money because maybe they missed a trip or something. That is part of the equation, too.

However, the major part that I see is train lineup inaccuracy. I'll give you a quick example if I have 10 seconds.

A train was on the schedule for 17 o'clock, which is 5 p.m. It was on the lineup from eight in the morning until about 14 o'clock, 2 p.m. of that afternoon, and then right before its closing, it went back 24 hours. This employee is trying to be rested to go to work at 5 p.m., and now they're not going to work for another six hours. They're rested and ready to go to work, and now they're staying awake for another six hours or longer before the next train comes. That is a continual issue, one that we see daily.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. McPherson, Mr. Campbell, and Mr. Bachrach. I appreciate it.

We're now going to move on to the second round, where we have Mr. Soroka starting us off, from the Conservative Party.

The floor is yours for five minutes.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question will be for Mr. McPherson.

We've heard a lot about the difficulties with trains carrying oil and various other flammable products. My question to you, though, is this. In order to prevent these disastrous oil spills, when it comes to transporting oil, could you touch on the safety of transporting oil through rail versus a pipeline?

4:55 p.m.

Locomotive Engineer, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference

Chad McPherson

From my own experience, what we've seen in regulatory practice recently as a result of Lac-Mégantic is a reduction in speeds in CMA limits, in highly populated areas. That alone will not fix the problem. If we're going to continue to transport oil by rail, which I think can be safe, we're going to have to have stricter regulations on maintenance. I see that in what we call “dark territory” where there are not bonded rails, so the engineering services go out to patrol the track.

With the pipelines, I'm not familiar with the process and I couldn't comment effectively on that.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Mr. Campbell, you mentioned many of the rail derailments and oil spills that have happened. Do you think there would be a better way if we could actually get more pipelines built, to get oil off the tracks and thus have a safer route for our oil products?

4:55 p.m.

Adjunct Professor, Faculty of Environmental and Urban Change, York University, As an Individual

Bruce Campbell

Well, just to remind you, there have been some major oil and gas pipeline accidents. Recently, in Belgium, 24 people were killed.

The Quebec participants will recall that in LaSalle, Quebec, the gas line was destroyed and 28 people were killed.

In Mexico, recently, in 2012, at the Kinder Morgan pipeline, 22 workers died.

Let's not pretend that pipelines are safe and the danger is with oil by rail.

I think there is much that can be done to lower the risks and avoid another Lac-Mégantic, but remember what the environmental commissioner of the AG's office said: that the window is still open for another occurrence.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

My next question will be for Mr. Bellefleur.

Lac-Mégantic was a horrible situation, and we definitely do not want to see that ever again in Canada. You said there's a moratorium now, and that the residents would like to see a stop to oil products being put through the community. Would they be more inclined to have a pipeline now, or are they just opposed to oil completely? The product still has to go through, so which would they prefer, a pipeline or rail?

5 p.m.

Spokesperson, Coalition des citoyens et organismes engagés pour la sécurité ferroviaire de Lac-Mégantic

Robert Bellefleur

As Mr. Campbell kind of demonstrated, neither method is safe. It's 2021 and we still have single-walled pipelines. When there's a crack, we get a spill into a natural environment. Sometimes it explodes, while other times it burns.

Both methods are not safe. Safety measures need to be reinforced and maintenance staff hired. Maintenance is sometimes overlooked. They don't do many inspections of oil pipelines, or of railways. The problem is there, no need to look any further.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Mr. McPherson, you said that rail cars are getting quite a bit longer, and one of the big issues, I know—I hear it from my residents—is trains blocking railway crossings, mostly for emergency vehicles, ambulances and fire engines, trying to get through as a safety issue, but even just school buses trying to get to work or other people getting to work. Is there something more that can be done? I know they talk about how the rails can't be blocked for more than five minutes, yet that doesn't seem to occur all the time.