Evidence of meeting #6 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Njoroge  Representative, Victim Families of Ethiopian 302, As an Individual
Chris Moore  Representative, Victim Families of Ethiopian 302, As an Individual
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Michael MacPherson
Rob Giguere  Chief Executive Officer, Air Canada Pilots Association
Tim Perry  President, Air Line Pilots Association Canada, Air Line Pilots Association, International
Jordan Bray-Stone  Chairperson, Health and Safety Committee, Airline Division, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Gilles Primeau  Professional Engineer, As an Individual

5:10 p.m.

Capt Tim Perry

Sure. Primary flight training follows a path something like this: A pilot will obtain a private pilot's licence. They will do some flying in a private environment, funded at their own cost. They will receive further training to receive a commercial pilot's licence. There are also ratings that one must obtain in order to be able to fly at night, fly multi-engine airplanes and be able to fly and control an airplane what are called instrument meteorological conditions. Those all take, at the bare minimum, a few hundred hours and approximately a couple of years.

At that point you're eligible to be employed in the commercial aviation space. Most entry-level jobs are flying small airplanes in remote parts of Canada, or instructing. As experience is gained, jobs become available at bigger airlines and in more complex machines. This is something that we could discuss at length, although I would like to add that prior to this current COVID situation, there was a lot of growth. Between growth metrics and attrition, the experience on the flight deck was decreasing somewhat, although that particular issue has been, at least in the short term, mitigated by the furloughs and the downturn in the aviation industry.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. Perry.

Mr. Sidhu, do you have a quick question?

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON

That's it. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. Sidhu.

Thank you, Mr. Giguere and Mr Perry.

We're now going to move on to Mr. Barsalou-Duval for six minutes.

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm not very familiar with the aircraft certification process. However, I'd say that the committee has helped us learn more about it.

The concerns raised by pilots and flight attendants have shown us that these people are generally not involved in the aircraft certification process.

I want to hear from Mr. Primeau, who is more familiar with the certification process.

In your opinion, why aren't these people involved in the process? Would it be beneficial if they were?

5:15 p.m.

Professional Engineer, As an Individual

Gilles Primeau

It always could be useful to involve other...while the pilots are well involved in the certification process. All those systems, including the interiors and [Technical difficulty—Editor] are being certified as well. I find one of the big lacks is in the engineering systems. The systems engineering aspect has been what has caused those two crashes, because they did not do the safety analysis properly, which led them to assess a criticality level of failures that was not sufficiently high. If that had been done, more testing would have taken place.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. Primeau.

As a question for the clerk, are we getting interpretation for Mr. Primeau?

5:15 p.m.

The Clerk

We're having some difficulties, I'm told. Where they can, they are providing interpretation, but they are having major difficulties hearing him.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Mr. Primeau, if you're asked any questions, please speak up a bit louder so the interpretation can hear you, because they're having some problems hearing you for interpretation.

I'll go back to Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Americans decided to allow the Boeing 737 MAX 8 to fly again, while requiring pilots to undergo MCAS training.

In your opinion, is this change enough to make the aircraft safe?

Should the Canadian government approve this aircraft?

5:15 p.m.

Professional Engineer, As an Individual

Gilles Primeau

Certainly the 737 Max is safer now that the MCAS software has been changed. However, to say that this is now the safest airplane because of all this scrutiny is just not true, simply on the basis of the obsolete system for the pitch trim, which has only one electric motor. We're talking about relying on human muscles as a backup to a single electric motor, while all other aircraft have at least two. Some even have three.

I would not get on this aircraft. Why should I subject myself unnecessarily to a higher risk level than on other comparable aircraft? That's basically what's happening here. The grandfathering has been stretched too much.

The final report is not out yet for the second crash, but the interim report has shown quite extensively that the forces on the manual trim wheel are much too high. It's not too surprising. The aircraft's growth since the 1960s has been massive.

First of all, to reiterate, it's not fair to claim that this is the safest airplane, just on that basis. There are other failures that might be happening completely independently of the MCAS that could lead to similar situations in flight when you have high forces on the column and on the manual trim wheel and several types of different malfunctions could happen in the system itself.

It appears to me that it would have made sense, once they introduced MCAS, to ask, “Hold on. MCAS is going to talk to this critical system, the most critical system on the aircraft, and we're not going to put it up to contemporary standards?” Regulations don't force them to do so, but if the new regulation modifications that I'm proposing were ever to be implemented, or had they been applied, or if we could magically apply them retroactively to the development of the 737 Max, I guarantee that the design flaws would have been found and corrected, and the two crashes would have been avoided.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. Primeau.

Go ahead, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

In your opinion, the aircraft certification system currently has significant shortcomings. As a result, not all issues are being identified. Your proposal would address a number of these issues.

Has the government responded to the proposals that you submitted? If so, I'd like to know the response.

5:20 p.m.

Professional Engineer, As an Individual

Gilles Primeau

At this point, there's been no feedback, and I'm not seeking feedback from Transport Canada because when I went to see them on June 18, 2019, I understood when they said that they could not give me feedback, given the ongoing investigations. However, I will be requesting to be at the debrief, for sure, when that investigation is completed.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. Primeau, and thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

We're now going to move on to Mr. Bachrach for six minutes.

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being with us today.

I'll start with the certification process. We've heard both from Mr. Giguere and Mr. Perry about the members of their associations. I'm wondering what you're hearing from those pilots. Are you hearing from pilots who are worried about getting back on the 737 Max and don't feel that the steps that have been taken are adequate? Is that something that you're hearing from your pilots?

5:20 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Air Canada Pilots Association

Rob Giguere

Obviously, the process is not yet complete. Our crews have been getting trained on the 737 Max simulator, of which we have two at Air Canada. The Air Canada Pilots Association members are training on that aircraft.

Once the certification process in Canada is completed, there will be more training done at that point, but we're not through the process yet. Of course, the minister hasn't made that decision at this point.

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Okay.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Mr. Perry, do you have any comment on that?

5:20 p.m.

Capt Tim Perry

I would just say that at this point, it's been our experience that the review of the certification and of the airplane has been quite thorough. We have commented to both Boeing and Transport Canada on numerous occasions. While we have not seen a final validation, we have every indication that any of our pilots' concerns, expressed through their association, have been considered.

I would like to leave you with that.

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

I'm just trying to understand. Mr. Perry, you say the concerns expressed from the pilots through the association have been understood. Does that mean that you have received concerns from pilots about the safety of the airplane?

5:20 p.m.

Capt Tim Perry

No, and thank you for the chance to clarify.

What I meant was our aircraft design and operation committee, which looks at the review process from a technical perspective, at times posed questions about the process and about certain technical aspects about the airplane. Those queries have been addressed to our satisfaction so far, and that's what I meant. We haven't received specific concerns from our members. They have been allowing the process to take place and the other associations to work together to seek these types of clarifications.

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Perry, we heard from Mr. Giguere. He said he was concerned about self-certification and this aspect of self-regulation, self-certification in the United States, and that Canada should not rely on the flawed regulatory processes of another jurisdiction. Is that a concern you share?

5:20 p.m.

Capt Tim Perry

Yes. I think it was well stated by Mr. Giguere that the idea of self-certification does have the potential for problems to emerge. This is because, as has been mentioned, airplanes have become so much more complex that it's actually the manufacturer that understands them the best. I think this is something to be learned. Since aircraft have become so much more technically advanced, we are going to have to evolve a process by which the manufacturer, the applicant, brings along the certification to the validating authorities. I think we can learn a lot from what's happened to date.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

My next question is for Mr. Bray-Stone.

I found your testimony about the conditions your members face onboard these aircraft very interesting.

What steps would you like to see the government take before it approves the 737 Max for flights in Canada?