Evidence of meeting #6 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.
A recording is available from Parliament.
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Liberal
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Professional Engineer, As an Individual
Yes. Okay.
There was a sudden jolt of 0.5 degrees on the H-stab in the first crash. Nobody talks about it in the final report, yet Transport Canada, when I worked on such systems, imposed not more than this amount of movement, half a degree, under some failure conditions.
High control forces conditions have been observed as well on the second flight. I estimated 120 pounds at one point in flight. Later on in the interim report their calculation was 119.4.
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey
Okay, Mr. Primeau. Thank you. I appreciate your testimony.
We're now going to go on to questions. We have our first questioner for six minutes.
Ms. Kusie, how is your audio going?
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Conservative
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Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
I know, yes, but actually, I'm going to pass my time over to my colleague Mr. Kram, just in case. Thank you, Chair.
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Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My questions will be directed to Mr. Giguere and Mr. Perry.
What I find so tragic about the Max 8 certification process is that as far back as 2016, Transport Canada test pilots had questions about the plane's behaviour related to speed and pitch. These pilots didn't know it at the time, but the strange behaviours they were observing were related to the flawed MCAS. Naturally, the pilots had questions. They wrote these questions down on a concern paper that was sent to Boeing. Tragically and inexplicably, the certification process for the Max 8 was approved without having received answers to all the Transport Canada questions.
My question is to Mr. Giguere and Mr. Perry.
I really want to hear your perspectives, because you're the ones who fly the planes. Should Transport Canada continue the practice of approving certifications for airplanes before having received answers from the manufacturer to all of its questions?
5 p.m.
Capt Tim Perry
I can comment only briefly, as I'm not familiar with the concern letter specifically, although I do know that letters of concern are normal. They don't necessarily indicate a high degree of risk versus a low degree of risk. This process isn't necessarily enough to really understand what is being highlighted for what needs addressing.
Of course, we all, as pilots, want aircraft to be.... If there are any outstanding issues, we absolutely stand for them to be addressed properly by the manufacturer and the regulator. That's absolutely something we would support.
5 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Air Canada Pilots Association
Mr. Chair, I could speak about this.
Yes, as I said in my comments, certainly we believe that we have the capability in Canada. We have an extraordinarily high level of capability. The certification process is not one that should be deferred to another authority.
To your question specifically, obviously if Canada is having a review and a certification process of its own, all those questions would have to be asked before the aircraft is returned to service, or in the case of a new aircraft, certified.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
I have another Transport Canada concern paper here, dated November 22, 2018. I'd like to read a brief quote from this concern paper:
Please note that in order to meet its delivery commitments to the Canadian operators, Boeing has requested Transport Canada to issue the 737-8 Max ATC in June of 2017. To avoid delivery delays to our operators, Transport Canada will review and discuss FAA position on this concern paper during its upcoming 737-9 validation activities. Therefore, this concern paper will remain open when the 737-8 Max ATC is issued by Transport Canada.
I find it very concerning that Boeing's sales targets and sales deadlines are making their way into a Transport Canada certification document.
Again to Mr. Giguere and Mr. Perry, how concerned are you that the Transport Canada certification process is being driven by Boeing's sales targets and not the safety of the aircraft?
5:05 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Air Canada Pilots Association
As I said in my comments, I believe we have the absolute expertise, world-class expertise, to do independent certification here in Canada, not only of the 737 Max but of other aircraft and future aircraft. We would support that view. We believe front-line pilots should be involved in the process. We have the experience and the knowledge and the wide breadth of different types that could be added to the process. We believe that is something that should happen, going forward.
5:05 p.m.
Capt Tim Perry
I echo Mr. Giguere's comments. I will also add that as airline pilots, of course we place the safety of the public and the safety of everyone on board at the absolute highest level. We believe safety and the considerations for safety are the most important considerations of all. We would like to see those considerations understood by Transport Canada and anybody certifying an airplane. We believe, as Mr. Giguere said, that certification can and should be done with our breadth of expertise here in Canada.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
Thank you, Chair.
Finally, where do you feel Canada made its biggest mistake? Was it the initial certification of the Max 8? Was it the delay in grounding the plane after the first crash or was it the delay in grounding the plane after the second crash?
5:05 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Air Canada Pilots Association
You know, I think it's a complex process, and I don't think we've.... In aviation, you look toward learning from events and experiences and processes. That's what our goal always is. As Captain Perry said, we place the importance of safety at the top of the list in terms of the passengers, the crew and the aircraft. That is something that won't change.
Learning from events that have happened is a primary goal. We look for transparency and knowledge as we move forward. That's why we're pleased with this process. As I said in my comments to this point, we're pleased with the recertification line that's been happening and the slow and thoughtful method to get the aircraft to a point where it could be determined to be airworthy and certified again in Canada.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey
Thank you, Mr. Giguere.
We'll now move to Mr. Sidhu for six minutes.
November 24th, 2020 / 5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses for being with us today.
To Mr. Moore and Mr. Njoroge especially, thank you for being here. My sincere condolences to you and your families and all the families impacted by this tragic event.
Mr. Giguere, I very much appreciate your insights. What role have you been playing with Transport Canada in considering the recertification of the Boeing Max planes?
5:05 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Air Canada Pilots Association
Like Captain Perry, ACPA, the Air Canada Pilots Association, has been very much involved. We have a very thorough review, a flight safety department internally within ACPA. We've been getting briefings essentially weekly throughout this process.
As was mentioned earlier, the Joint Operations Evaluation Board was something that was introduced. Front-line pilots—in this case, WestJet pilots as the primary crew—went and worked with Transport Canada in the simulator to assess the procedures and processes in the development of the changes to the Max. The Air Canada crew were on standby as a secondary crew.
We've seen a lot of collaboration through this process, which has given us confidence and comfort that our views are taken seriously and considered. We believe it's something that should happen, going forward, to ensure that processes are complete from our perspective.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON
Mr. Giguere, how do you balance the safety of pilots and passengers with the economic need to get your pilots flying again? I know you mentioned that quite a few pilots are on furlough. I'd like to hear your insights on that.
5:10 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Air Canada Pilots Association
There is no higher priority for an airline pilot than the safety of his passengers, his crew and his aircraft. I can say that with certainty. Certainly, in the Canadian environment, with the experience I've had, it is the absolute highest priority. The crews I have been exposed to, worked with and had working for me over the years understand that this is the most important priority.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON
Mr. Giguere, I have a lot of questions for you. You mentioned human factors in regard to training. I'm hoping you can elaborate more on this.
5:10 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Air Canada Pilots Association
The aircraft that we fly today are much different from the aircraft we flew when I started my career. The aircraft are complex man-machine interfaces with very complex computer systems that assist the pilots and that have proven over time to reduce the incident and accident rate.
That said, the crews, the pilots always need to be aware of how those systems interact with the primary systems of the aircraft. I think that's something that will continue.
Aircraft are extremely sophisticated, so the human factors piece of it is really something that the crews work with every day. One of the primary focuses in the extensive training has become human factors and how the aircraft is handled by the crew and how the crew handle the aircraft in terms of understanding it.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON
Captain Perry, I want to go more into the training aspect so I can get a proper grasp of it.
What kind of training does it require to become a pilot? I know these seem like basic questions, but they're very important for the public. How many years does it take, and how much does it cost? What type of additional training is required to pilot these planes? I know certain pilots are trained for certain types of planes. Could you elaborate more on that?