Transport Committee on Nov. 7th, 2024

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Leslyn, that was a perfect segue. Thank you for that.

I'll go to Mayor Martin.

Mayor Martin, I feel for you. As a former mayor of 14 years of the city of Port Colborne who took on Sugarloaf Marina, right from its inception all the way up to where it is now, I feel for you, especially with the capital costs. That can be quite challenging, which is what I want to get a bit deeper into, between you and Sergeant Moffatt.

I'm assuming, because the OPP is your choice for policing in Norfolk County, that you're fully aware of budgeting the operational side and the capital side. It's unfair for me to ask you for the numbers, because I'm sure you don't have them in front of you, but I think we share the opinion that they're quite inflated.

The cost of the marine unit, in particular, is borne by the property tax payers. Is that correct?

[Amy Martin]

Indirectly, yes. It's levied through property taxes.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Of course, within the police budget is the marine unit. Again, that would be picked up by the property tax payers.

In Niagara, where I sat on the police service board for over 12 years, one thing that always frustrated us was that we took on policing not just from a safety point of view, but from a border point of view, because Lake Erie is on the border. Of course, with that defaulting to the local level, it can be quite expensive in itself with no participation from the provincial or federal levels of government. It's all, once again, being borne by the property tax payers.

With that, I'm going to shift over to to Sergeant Moffatt.

Sergeant Moffatt, do you find it expensive within the service? Let me go back for a second. First of all, is there a harmonized process? I'll use that word. You are bound by the Police Services Act when it comes to adequacy standards and minimum numbers when you're on the road.

[Sgt Dave Moffatt]

Yes, sir. I believe so.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

First, are you bound by adequacy standards and minimum numbers on the water? Second, is the cost quite expensive on the operational and capital side? Third, do you find there should be more provincial and federal participation with respect to harmonizing and with respect to financing the service you're providing on the water, thereby alleviating the pressure on property tax payers?

[Sgt Dave Moffatt]

I wish I could answer those questions. A whole different part of the building does all of that.

What I can says is that, yes, we are mandated under the Police Services Act, which is now the Community Safety and Policing Act. We are talking about what effective policing means. Can we say it has to have so many boats and so many...? We're not there yet, so I cannot answer those questions for you. I'm not in that realm.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Mayor Martin, if you can get me some of that information through the police service board, that would be ideal.

What I'm trying to do here is get this into testimony for the analysts. Then we can expect recommendations to come back that say, one, there should be harmonized adequacy standards when it comes to on-water policing and, two, we should take into consideration not only safety through our policing of the waters, but also that we have an international border.

Who knows what's coming into your community, Mayor Martin, across the waterway, whether it's guns, drugs or other illegal activity? That is heavily weighted on Sergeant Moffatt and, I'm sure, the thin crew you have on the waterways versus the heavier crew that's required. Lastly is the financing so that costs do not fall on the property tax payer.

I would request, Mayor Martin, that we get that information. That way, I can add it to the testimony and the analysts can make it part of the final report.

[Amy Martin]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Badawey.

Next we'll go to Mr. Lawrence.

Mr. Lawrence, the floor is yours. You have five minutes, sir.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you.

I apologize. I'm just going to go over some administrative matters at the beginning of my questions.

We have a number of asks out there—requests—and I would like the status on those, Mr. Chair. We asked former transport minister Pablo Rodriguez to come to committee, and I'm wondering if he has responded to that invitation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I've just conferred with the clerk. He did respond, but he said that he was unavailable.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

We've also asked the current Minister of Transportation, Minister Anand, to attend to discuss her mandate letter. Has she responded to that invitation yet?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

We're awaiting a response.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Finally—and I know we'll discuss this in committee, so I'm looking specifically for the documents—we also requested documents with respect to “the big dock” from Transport Canada. Have we received them?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

We haven't received anything yet. It takes quite some time. We'll follow up again.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Okay.

I have one last administrative matter. I'm putting a motion on notice. I am not moving it, to be clear; I'm just putting it on notice. Before we discuss it, it will be available in both English and French. It reads:

That the committee recommend that the federal government reinstate the Safety Education and Flare Disposal Program and report this recommendation to the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lawrence.

The floor is yours.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I'll proceed with my questions, which will be directed to Mayor Martin.

Thank you very much for joining us today, and thank you for being so prepared. You gave us an excellent overview of the economic impact of the marinas and of boating in your municipality.

What would the impact be on your community if the amount of recreational boating, and even commercial boating, were to decline by 10%, 20% or 50%?

[Amy Martin]

It would be significant. I don't have a dollar figure to demonstrate the economic development impact, but a thousand people minimum are at the marina during peak season, dining, shopping and participating in theatre in the community. For cultural and significant event-related purposes, they're in the community of Port Rowan. All this is quite literally woven into the fabric of how the community operates, so the impact would be significant. There's also the employment factor of not only the large fleets but also the commercial industry. Truly hundreds of people from across Norfolk County and beyond are employed by three major employers.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

There's been considerable testimony—and some of it I might even say was excellent—about the environmental impact of boating on our waterways. However, this has to be weighed against the potential economic impact, the impact on tourism and the impact on communities such as yours of putting regulations in place to make it considerably more difficult or more expensive for boaters to utilize their craft, conduct tours or do otherwise—or even commercial ships. That would have a negative impact on your community, would it not?

[Amy Martin]

Absolutely.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I just want to change subjects. You may not be particularly well versed on this, and that's fine, but have you heard from or talked to any of your residents, or even your own municipality, about the additional costs that have come from the increased regulation of our waterways and, second, from the carbon tax?

[Amy Martin]

I can't speak specifically to any increased costs outside of the inflationary pressures on operations and gas prices. Outside of that, I have nothing specific.

As to the carbon tax specifically, again, from the boating perspective, I can't say. However, what I can share with you is that, by 2030, if we continue the status quo, our municipal operations will increase to close to $1 million paid in carbon tax. That's for a smaller rural municipality. As we're preparing our municipal budget—I know that's not apples to apples—we're anticipating significant transfer payments because of the carbon tax at the municipal level, and that is for status quo operations. I can only surmise that the impacts would be the same for commercial, industrial and recreational boating.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

To summarize your testimony, by 2030 your municipality will be paying $1 million in carbon tax. Is that your evidence?

[Amy Martin]

Our estimate is just under $1 million at status quo, yes.