Veterans Affairs Committee on March 23rd, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

I call the meeting to order.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to our fourth meeting of this session.

I'm going to introduce our witnesses in just a moment, but I want to cover two previous things. If there's some discussion that we want to have about these issues, we can do it after the witness testimony. I'll save some time for some business at the end.

First off, I'd like you to know that your chairman and your clerk fought very heartily at the Liaison Committee and were able to sustain a good vote to get the budget to go to Ste. Anne's. That's been done, and the clerk will continue to arrange all the logistics for us to get there.

Secondly, I received a communication earlier from our analyst with some concern that a lot of the questioning that's been happening in our meetings has fallen into the health care services dimension of Veterans Affairs Canada and not in a dimension of the new Veterans Charter. The new Veterans Charter focuses mostly on rehabilitation, on compensation, on training, and a lot of our questioning has been around health care. The researchers basically asked me to inform you, and then with some feedback...as I said, either we can go into some business at the end or you can just tell me individually if you'd like to do a separate study on health care services. They are two different pieces of legislation and they're not really germane for one study.

That being said, if you're okay with how we proceed with that, we'll now go to our witnesses.

I will introduce to you Brigadier-General Kettle, André Bouchard, Colonel Gerry Blais, and as well we have Doug Chislett with us. It's my understanding that only Brigadier-General David Kettle has opening comments. Is that correct?

Mr. Bouchard, do you have opening comments as well?

Okay. They'll be under 10 minutes for both. Great.

Brigadier-General Kettle, you can begin, please, and then we'll go to Mr. Bouchard.

[Brigadier-General, Retired) David C. Kettle (Chaplain General, Department of National Defence]

Thank you.

Honourable members of Parliament and of this distinguished and critical committee,

I am Brigadier-General David Kettle, Chaplain General to the Canadian Forces.

It is a great honour and privilege for me to be here this morning to speak in support of our veterans. It is the mandate of the Chaplain Branch, on behalf of the chain of command, to provide effective religious and spiritual support to our men and women in uniform and their families throughout Canada and around the world.

I will be using my notes today to save time, and because I am very proud of my chaplains. I have a habit of going on too long about their extraordinary work within the Canadian Forces and with our veterans.

During these challenging times, with Afghanistan, Haiti and certain domestic operations like OP PODIUM, we have thousands of military personnel deployed, providing outstanding service, often to suffering and struggling people.

The service of our soldiers, sailors, and air personnel on behalf of a grateful nation requires great dedication and commitment, and sometimes the sacrifice of health, well-being, and even life itself. Through the ministry of presence, the chaplaincy is involved with our members at every level of a member's military career--in garrison, on the land, in the air, on the sea, and on deployment--and veterans often continue the relationship with chaplains they know and trust after leaving the Canadian Forces. We are there when a member has fulfilling professional moments and we are there when a member is injured, standing alongside and providing spiritual care that is encouraging and health-enhancing. We can continue to be with our veterans through our chapels and as their friends.

I'm trying to develop a linkage here, ladies and gentlemen, that although we do not officially give spiritual and counselling care to veterans, certainly unofficially we do.

In addition to having chaplains available to our people in garrison, on exercises, and on deployments, we have specialized chaplains with Master of Arts degrees in counselling as integral team members with our mental health specialists in our operational trauma and stress support centres. We have experienced chaplains who provide ministry to our joint personnel support units and our integrated personnel support centres across Canada. This sends a very clear message that total care for all soldiers, sailors, and aircrew includes religious and spiritual support.

At the Directorate of Casualty Support Management Centre, where all veteran support is coordinated, we have a full-time former military chaplain who has a network of retired chaplains and civilian clergy across Canada, in both urban and rural settings, who are available to respond effectively and to support a veteran on very short notice. Sadly, as of April 1, this position has been cut.

Our men and women in uniform deserve the very best care our nation can provide as they do their best to serve Canada and the world, and our veterans also deserve nothing less than our best as well.

The new Veterans Charter is an indication of our nation's commitment to our military members and their families. It is with deep satisfaction and pride that the chaplaincy of the Canadian Forces is fully engaged with all the support programs provided by the new Veterans Charter, and it is a source of deep satisfaction and pride that our veterans have the spiritual and religious services they deserve and require in order to return to fulfilling lives following injury or illness.

Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, General.

We will now go on to Mr. Bouchard.

[André Bouchard, President, Service Income Security Insurance Plan (SISIP), Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and honourable members of Parliament.

Merci beaucoup for inviting us here today to answer any questions pertaining to our mandate to deliver the long-term disability and vocational rehabilitation programs.

This is a Government of Canada employer-sponsored plan for the men and women of the Canadian Forces. Essentially our plan mirrors other Government of Canada disability insurance plans for public servants, including members of Parliament.

Treasury Board of Canada has full governance over the plan. I am the President of SISIP Financial Services and I am responsible to the Chief of the Defence Staff through the Canadian Forces personnel and family support services, to provide the long-term disability, which includes the vocational rehabilitation program.

We are not a contractor, and in fact are part of the Department of National Defence structure.

I would like to mention that when a decision is made to medically release a CF member, SISIP financial services becomes actively involved through the provision of a vocational rehabilitation program, often nine months before the effective date of release, with the financial support starting up to six months before release. After release, the vocational rehabilitation program continues to provide support for another 24 months in conjunction with monthly long-term disability support. At 24 months, clients are assessed on a definition of total disability that considers not only the medical condition, but also education, training, and experience.

If a client does not meet the definition of "total disability", then the client is capable and has the skills to return to the workplace in viable employment.

If the client does meet the contract definition of "totally disabled", support may then continue up to age 65.

Clients supported with Long-Term Disability and Vocational Rehabilitation through SISIP FS may simultaneously be provided with medical and psycho-social support through the New Veterans Charter.

Vocational and earnings loss benefit support from VAC can only start once the SISIP financial services has closed the client's file because the client doesn't meet the contract definition of total disability. In other words, SISIP financial services is always the first payer.

For information purposes, since 2006, SISIP financial services has supported over 3,900 disability claims, of which 124 were from Afghanistan. We've paid out over 1,500 life claims, of which 141 were from Afghanistan, and we've paid out 55 dismemberment claims, of which 39 were from Afghanistan.

Since 2006, the SISIP program has paid out over $300 million in direct support to our CF veterans, and the vocational rehabilitation program has helped over 1,500 veterans return to gainful employment.

Before closing I would like to say that the monthly pension hike benefit continues to be offset against SISIP LTD and all of the public sector plans, including the earnings loss benefit under Veterans Affairs Canada. As this issue is before the courts, I cannot make any comments related specifically to this litigation.

In closing, I would like to introduce Mr. Doug Chislett, National Director of the SISIP Financial Services Vocational Rehabilitation who will join me in answering your questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bouchard.

Now we'll go to our regular rotation of questions. The first questioner will be Mr. Oliphant for seven minutes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you all for being here.

The first question is for General Kettle.

Partly because of my background I'm quite interested in your work. I think you said that as of April 1, no chaplaincy will be financially supported under any Veterans Affairs Canada program. Is that true?

[BGen D.C. Kettle]

There will be no full-time chaplain at the strategic level. That chaplain was handling the veterans pastoral outreach program. I believe, to be fair to Veterans Affairs, the two chaplains who held that position did such a good job that they worked themselves out of a job. We'll see.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Does that mean there's a volunteer network that will be self-sustaining?

[BGen D.C. Kettle]

Yes. There's a list of clergy and religious leaders across the country who can be called upon by Veterans Affairs to minister or provide religious and spiritual support to veterans, no matter what their faith or lack of faith is.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Are they required to have CAPE training?

[BGen D.C. Kettle]

No, sir. Many of them do.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

They're just generalists then.

[BGen D.C. Kettle]

They are generalists, by and large.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

So they're not counsellors.

I am a pastor. I have a Master of Divinity and a Doctor of Ministry, but I am not a pastoral counsellor.

[BGen D.C. Kettle]

No.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I am very clear that a lot of clergy pretend they are pastoral counsellors when they are small “p”, small “c” pastoral counsellors, as opposed to having any accreditation in pastoral counselling.

[BGen D.C. Kettle]

Veterans Affairs certainly wouldn't use any of them.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

All right.

Is there a requirement for a chaplain who does counselling to actually have certification in counselling?

[BGen D.C. Kettle]

We have many Canadian Forces chaplains who have masters degrees in counselling, mostly from the University of Saint Paul, that we use in a specialized ministry.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

But they're not members of professional bodies, so they're not regulated as such.

[BGen D.C. Kettle]

They're regulated, and we have many people who are trained who are regulated as well. Many of them train in the United States at the Naval Medical Center in Portsmouth.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you.

I have a question for the SISIP folks. Thank you again for being here.

I want you to distinguish between those who were veterans before the new Veterans Charter, and veterans who are part of the new Veterans Charter. There's a difference in the way SISIP works for those who become veterans once they are considered new veterans.

Could you explain how SISIP is different for pre-2006 veterans compared to new veterans?

[André Bouchard]

In terms of benefits, essentially the benefit structure has not changed since the implementation of the new charter in 2006, where the charter introduced a disability award effective April 2006 and essentially cancelled the monthly Pension Act benefits.

The amount of a disability award, which is a lump sum amount that is clearly for pain and suffering, is not an offset against any SISIP benefit that someone receives.

To put this in context, the benefit under the SISIP platform is 75% of a member's salary at the time of release. There is also a list of reductions that apply. Some of these reductions include the Canada Pension Plan and the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act, and maybe some earned income. Pre-2006, the monthly Pension Act was also an offset against SISIP.

That's essentially the big difference pre-charter. After the charter the DA is no longer an offset, whereas the monthly Pension Act is still an offset today if someone was to come on claims with such a benefit.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

In that, the monthly Pension Act benefit is considered income and the lump sum disability award under the new Veterans Charter is not income.

[André Bouchard]

The fact is, we don't make the distinction that the monthly Pension Act is a form of income. When it was included in the list of deductions in 1976, it was considered through Treasury Board, when the TB submission was made and approved, that anyone in receipt of this, I can say in quotations, “income” or benefit...it would become an offset against the SISIP LTD.