Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 17th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to the 25th meeting of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Monday, October 3, 2022, the committee is meeting on its study of the impact of the new rehabilitation contract awarded by the Department of Veterans Affairs on the role of the case manager and quality of service delivery.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of Thursday, June 23rd, 2022. Members are able to attend in person or remotely with the Zoom application.

I will now welcome some colleagues that are here with us today. We have Mr. Peter Julian, who is replacing Ms. Rachel Blaney; Ms. Marilyn Gladu, who is replacing Mr. Fraser Tolmie, and Mr. John Brassard, who is replacing Mr. Terry Dowdall. You should also know that our committee clerk, Ms. Audrée Dallaire, will have the support of Ms. Dancella Boyi, also a clerk.

I will just give a few tips to the witnesses and committee members to ensure that the meeting goes well.

Please wait until I call you before you speak. If you are participating via videoconference, click on the microphone icon to turn your mic on. An interpretation service is also available.

I would remind you that all comments from members and witnesses must go through the chair.

In accordance with our routine motion, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests before today's meeting.

I hope that committee members had a good week and that they were able to attend ceremonies on Remembrance Day.

Now I would like to welcome our witnesses.

From the Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees, we have Virginia Vaillancourt, national president—welcome—and Toufic El-Daher, national executive vice-president. He will be joining us by video conference.

Each of you will have five minutes for your opening remarks. I usually let people know that they only have a minute left or that their time has run out.

Ms. Vaillancourt, you have the floor for the next five minutes.

[Virginia Vaillancourt, National President, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees]

Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. We have the privilege to represent almost 2,800 mostly frontline workers who have the honour to serve our veterans to make sure that they receive proper supports, timely decisions and the benefits they need.

The latest report from Veterans Affairs Canada shows that there are a total of 494 case manager positions on the payroll. Of those, 441 are indeterminate, and there are 53 term positions.

However, positions are not people. From May 3 to August 30, 2022, VAC hired 13 case managers. During the same time period, 24 case managers left the department due to retirement or resignation, or moved to other departments. Yes, VAC hired case managers but still ended up with a net loss of 11 people.

Another 90 case managers are on some form of disability, long-term sick leave or other leave. That means we have fewer than 400 case managers to serve the needs of almost 15,000 veterans and their families. It shouldn't come as any surprise that we have lengthy backlogs, frustrated veterans and psychologically wounded and demoralized staff.

Veterans coming to VAC are often worried or scared, and usually sick and hurting, both physically and mentally. The role of a case manager is to listen to their story and guide them through a complex system when they may be at their most vulnerable. The ultimate goal is to make sure that the veteran's transition to civilian life is as successful as possible.

As you will hear from some case managers next week, this is not just another job. For most of them, it's a calling to serve those who served. Case managers fear that through the new rehab contract, veterans will lose their human, face-to-face contact with someone who will be an ally, an advocate and quite often a trusted friend to them and their families during some pretty dark times.

Under the new contract, the contractor will be the lead in providing advice and guidance to veterans who require rehab services, not the case managers who have built relationships of trust with the veterans. The contractor may find them service providers, but who will answer the questions? Who will sit with them and their families to hear their stories and address their fears? Who will they turn to if things don't work out?

The bigger question is whether we want the face of service to veterans to be a kind, caring and compassionate case manager or a for-profit corporation that serves its shareholders.

I'll turn it over to Toufic.

[Toufic El-Daher, National Executive Vice-President, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The new rehabilitation contract has been problematic from the beginning. Veterans Affairs Canada claims that case managers and the union have been consulted. That is false.

We received a copy of the contract a few days before the contract was awarded. We appointed union representatives to various sub‑committees but they were seldom invited to the planning meetings. None of our questions and none of the questions asked by case managers were answered.

We wrote to the minister to ask that he meet with us and listen to our concerns. He ignored our request twice. The third time, he declined and referred us to the department which still hasn't answered our questions.

The department initially held townhalls where questions were encouraged from employees. Then, when the department couldn't give any satisfactory answers, they shut off the chat function and stopped allowing direct questions. A few weeks ago, the department held another townhall with case managers. Once again, no chat and no questions.

This is not collaboration or consultation.

None of the case managers' questions about their roles and responsibilities or how this contract would actually work have been answered. The case managers have not even been fully trained on how to implement this contract.

Given the situation, we have asked that the implementation of the rehabilitation contract be pushed back, and we hope your committee will consider this possibility.

We fully support the case managers' recommendations that Veterans Affairs Canada commit to a case ratio of 25:1. This is essential. We also need long‑term funding for this department in order to put an end to temporary or short-term funding. Our veterans are not temporary; they are veterans for life.

Our union and our members are fully committed to serving veterans. They are our friends, our family members, our neighbours and our heroes.

Our veterans deserve better.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Ms. Vaillancourt, Mr. El‑Daher, thank you for your opening remarks.

We will now have a first round of questions. I will ask Mr. Blake Richards to start.

Mr. Richards, you have the floor for six minutes.

The floor is yours.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you. I appreciate your being here today.

In what seems like a bit of a contrast to what we've heard from you today, in a statement to the CBC, the minister's office indicated—and I'm going to quote—that, “From the beginning, VAC has had transparent and regular communication with staff. Case managers have been and will continue to be engaged in all phases of the contract rollout as elements are put in place.”

Is that accurate? Do you find that's been the case?

[Virginia Vaillancourt]

No, I do not.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Okay.

First of all, as head of the union, have you had engagement with the minister? Has the minister reached out to you? Has there been any conversation between you and the minister about this rollout or this process?

[Virginia Vaillancourt]

No, the minister's office has not provided an opportunity to meet with him to discuss the contract whatsoever, no.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Do you find that a little odd?

[Virginia Vaillancourt]

I do, considering his previous mandate from Justin Trudeau, which specifically stated that he was to work with and include the labour movement. We've had absolutely nothing in regard to the contract.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I find it more than a little odd myself. It seems as though it would be quite obvious that there should be engagement with you and with those who are on the front lines in the department, with veterans themselves, with service providers. It certainly appears as if none of that has happened.

Would that be your understanding as well? Have you had conversations with veterans and some of the service providers at all? Have they been engaged by the minister?

[Virginia Vaillancourt]

No, they haven't. When we talk to veterans, they're not sure exactly what's going on. They know that the department sent out a generic letter advising them of the change to the new contractor, but they still have so many unanswered questions.

When we met with the Legion earlier this year, they were not aware of the contract at that point, so in terms of engagement with stakeholders, no.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Okay. What about case managers themselves? What are you hearing from them? Do they feel as though they have adequate information about what's going on? Do they feel as though they've been engaged in this process at all? If not, why not, and what is happening?

[Virginia Vaillancourt]

We've been talking to case managers for a number of months, specifically in and around the contract. We've been holding town halls. They don't know exactly what their role is going to look like when this contract kicks in on Tuesday next week.

I was speaking with a number of case managers yesterday. They still have not received the process by which to refer clients to the new contractor, and this contract kicks in on Tuesday. It's kind of concerning that they don't know what their roles are going to specifically look like or how it's going to roll out specifically.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Yes, that's concerning to say the least. We're talking about something that's supposed to start next week, and you're telling me that the case managers, who clearly are intimately involved in this process and would have to be, don't have any idea what is going to happen, how this is going to roll out or what the interface is between themselves and the new contractors. That is a real concern.

Do you see any way that this is anything but a failure in that scenario?

[Virginia Vaillancourt]

No, I think it's a pure failure. I've asked the department to slow the contract down, to back up a number of steps to make sure the case managers' questions and concerns are dealt with and to make sure that veterans are not going to fall through the cracks, but they have a contract to push through, and that's what they're going to do.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

How are the case managers themselves feeling about this? How do they see this process?

I looked at the job description for the contractor they are hiring, and I compared it to a job posting for a case manager, and they sure look a lot alike, so how are case managers feeling? Are they feeling as though they understand what their role will be going forward? It doesn't seem very clear to me.

[Virginia Vaillancourt]

No, and one of our concerns is that the role of the new RSS, the rehabilitation service specialist, is very close to and very similar to what the case manager's job is right now. There is a lot of uncertainty about what their role is going to look like and what duties they are actually going to be doing.

The department is stating that it's going to ease the administrative burden, but with this migration and transition to the new contractor, there has been nothing but additional administrative burden for them with transferring files, etc.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

What impact do you see this having on veterans? It doesn't look to me like a very seamless process when even the case managers themselves don't have a clue about what's happening here.

How is this going to affect veterans? What impact will this have on them? What do you foresee happening there?

[Virginia Vaillancourt]

The veterans we've talked to and the case managers we have spoken to have said that their veterans don't really know what's going on and they are not able to provide answers to the veterans on what it's going to look like or how the transition is going to roll out.

There is too much uncertainty right now for this contract to go forward.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

For case managers, the role is really to have a relationship with veterans, as I understand it. In this process, is there a chance that relationship will be severed and there will be a negative impact on veterans as a result of this changeover and of not knowing? I would assume if case managers don't know, veterans themselves don't know. What impact will that have on a veteran?

[Virginia Vaillancourt]

One of the case managers' biggest fears is the loss of the relationship. It takes a while to build a trusting relationship with a veteran to get them to open up, to verify what their barriers actually are. Not having that relationship is going to be a hardship for the veterans. Case managers are concerned that there's going to be a loss of trust in the department by the veterans because of this uncertainty.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you. I'm out of time. I appreciate your answers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Richards and Madame Vaillancourt.

Now I'd like to invite Mr. Sean Casey. Go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Vaillancourt, on July 17, 2022, you published a news release in which you indicated that the union obtained confidential surveys carried out by the Department of Veterans Affairs. Do you recall that?