Evidence of meeting #25 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contract.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4 p.m.
National Executive Vice-President, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees
The impact will probably be felt in three years, when the $43 million will have been spent, because at that time, they will probably decide not to keep certain positions. There could also be an impact on the job classification of current case managers.
Frankly, I'm worried. The department won't say anything, but that is really what is worrying us.
4 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you, Mr. El‑Daher
Mr. Julian, you have the floor for six minutes.
November 17th, 2022 / 4 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. El‑Daher, I see that there were 26, 24 and 31 people who participated in the survey that Mr. Casey is using to attack the union.
Can you confirm these numbers and explain how many union members that is equivalent to?
4 p.m.
National Executive Vice-President, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees
Sure.
Mr. Chair, we received a total of 54 answers, which is about 9% of case managers. That's why I am telling you that it is 68% of 9% of all case managers.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
I think it is important to highlight that Mr. Casey is talking about a very small minority.
Ms. Vaillancourt, thank you so much for being here.
As I understand it, it has been nearly a year since you have met with the minister. How many requests have you made over the course of the last year to meet with him?
4:05 p.m.
National President, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees
I've submitted three official letters to him that I know off by heart. There might have been five, but there were three for sure.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
You have not at any point had the minister meet the union that represents the vast majority of caseworkers?
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
I find that stunning.
I also find it appalling and outrageous that in 120 hours, 15,000 veterans, many of them suffering from PTSD, many of them suffering from injuries, are going to be thrown into a black hole because it doesn't appear that the ministry has done any preparations at all. You mention no process, no training.
Is it true that at this point there is absolute chaos anticipated in 120 hours?
4:05 p.m.
National President, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees
The case managers absolutely feel that way, yes. We feel and support them in their concerns. That's why we want to speak to the minister. He's just not willing to meet.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
I find that appalling treatment of people who have put their lives on the line for Canada. I'm stunned by this. I'm subbing in on this committee, but I'm just stunned by your testimony.
4:05 p.m.
National President, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees
We have to remember that some of our case managers are veterans as well. They're seeing this from both sides of the field. That's another concerning piece.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
You mentioned 15,000 veterans. There are fewer than 400 case managers because the government hasn't managed this department effectively at all. Is it true that means that each case manager is handling about 40 veterans?
4:05 p.m.
National President, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees
Right now that's the average. We've had case managers count their cases, because the department will state that they have a 30 to one ratio. Case managers are carrying a minimum of 40, and some of them have as many as 60 in their caseloads.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
That's unbelievable. You could have the best case manager in the world, but if they're handling 60 veterans, they have at best a few minutes a week for each of those veterans. That's appalling.
What could $100 million in the ministry actually do in terms of increasing the caseworkers and providing for the effective management that is so important for supporting our nation's veterans?
4:05 p.m.
National President, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees
Permanent funding is key. Having this temporary stopgap funding is not helping. We need to hire more case managers in house. Having that $100 million would easily provide the ability to hire more case managers and retain them in house.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Are you aware, in terms of the contract, of what the profit margin might be? That, of course, would be a concern as well.
When it is in house, we have trained caseworkers who have a link, as you said so eloquently, and who have been working with those veterans for years and years. They develop the relationship. With adequate funding and appropriate management, they could be provided the supports they need. When you take it out of house, then there are a variety of payments that the federal taxpayer picks up, including profit margins for private corporations.
Are you aware of what the profit margin might be for this particular contract?
4:05 p.m.
National President, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees
We don't know the exact profit margin, but we have sort of calculated it out. We estimate that it's going to cost about 25% more to have this contractor on board than it is to hire more case managers.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Yes, that's the case in most examples of privatization. That's very similar to some of the examples we've seen, tragically, in other sectors.
Are you aware of whether there are any penalties at all for non-compliance? Is there even, within the contract, anything remotely close to the type of relationship that caseworkers already have with veterans?
4:05 p.m.
National President, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees
No, and the contractor will be doing their own quality assurance. It is really concerning when you have a contractor doing the quality assurance of their own work. I don't see—
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
I'm sorry—are you saying the contractor is evaluating itself? Are they basically grading themselves?
4:05 p.m.
National President, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees
They have the quality assurance. We have documentation from the department, from one of the town halls, that specifically states that the contractor “will oversee the service delivery to ensure adherence to the contract requirements, accountability and service excellence.” This includes “accessibility, timeliness, adherence to program intent, parameters, legislation”.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
So they get to grade themselves on the quality that they're providing to veterans.
Is there a duplication of services? It seemed very convoluted in terms of the contract, but are you going to see Veterans Affairs employees, and then the contractor—with whatever profit margin they're getting—doing again some of the things that have been done by Veterans Affairs?
4:10 p.m.
National President, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees
That's one of the things we're unsure of at this point, because we're not sure exactly how this is going to roll out and what exactly the role of the case managers is going to be once this contract is in place.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
We are 120 hours from this, and we don't have any of those answers.
Thank you for your testimony.