Debates of Feb. 24th, 1994

Business Of The House

[The Speaker]

Members have heard the terms of the motion. Is there unanimous agreement?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to.)

[The Speaker]

Today during statements by members I recognized the member for Red Deer but the member for Vegreville made a statement. The record will be corrected to show that it was the member for Vegreville who took the floor.

The Late Douglas Charles Neil

[Allan Kerpan, Reform, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I consider it an honour to rise in the House today to pay tribute to a veteran honourable member and a friend of this place.

Hon. Douglas Charles Neil passed from this world on Monday, February 21. Mr. Neil served his community and country well. Along with community service Mr. Neil, like so many others, was part of the overseas forces during World War II. As a member of Parliament, Doug had nothing but the highest respect from his colleagues as well as from his constituents. He truly was an honourable member.

He served as member for Moose Jaw from 1972 until 1984. This was the southern and urban part of the current riding of Moose Jaw-Lake Centre, the electoral district which I am now privileged to represent.

Although I did not know Doug personally I have heard many in my riding refer to him and the service he gave to them, to his country and to the House. These references of which I speak were without exception favourable and commendatory.

Just today I was reading through press accounts of Doug's passing. I am struck by the deep sense of loss many of his personal friends are expressing at this time. Even stronger than that sentiment is the gratitude and respect these friends hold for Mr. Neil. Truly his life of service impacted his fellow citizens in a profound way.

I join all those who sorrow at this time of Mr. Neil's death. On behalf of members on this side of the House I express my sincere condolences to his wife, Charlotte, and to his family. I also join in the recognition that Doug Neil has had and will have a lasting influence for good. May his memory be blessed.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, it was my privilege to know the late Doug Neil and to serve with him for a term in the House in the 1970s.

Doug was first elected as the member for Moose Jaw in 1972 and he served as a member of Parliament until 1984. From 1974 until 1979 it was my honour to represent the Saskatchewan constituency of Assiniboia which at that time was right next to the constituency of Moose Jaw.

Doug and I shared a common interest in issues such as agriculture, transportation and rural affairs. We had many encounters on these issues and others in the House, in the Standing Committee on Agriculture, in the Standing Committee on Transport and on many public platforms, especially in western Canada. We obviously had our policy disagreements, but I believe we also shared a mutual respect for each other and a profound commitment to the well-being of those we were elected to serve.

Prior to his career as a member of Parliament, Doug Neil distinguished himself as an RCAF navigator, a barrister and solicitor, a Moose Jaw city councillor and an active contributor to his community through such vehicles as the Moose Jaw Wild Animal Regional Park, the Royal Canadian Legion, the United Services Institute and the Moose Jaw Kinsmen and K-40 organizations.

Doug Neil was well known and well respected in Moose Jaw. He was a proud citizen of Saskatchewan and Canada. He was a successful and effective member of Parliament and a dedicated servant to his community. He will be missed.

I wish to join with the hon. member for Moose Jaw-Lake Centre to express on behalf of the Government of Canada our sincere condolences to Mr. Neil's family.

[Gaston Leroux, Bloc, Richmond—Wolfe, QC]

Mr. Speaker, although I did not know Douglas Charles Neil personally, I would like at this time, on behalf of all my Bloc Quebecois colleagues, to extend my deepest sympathies to the family and friends of the former member for Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan who served in this House from 1972 to 1984.

[John Solomon, NDP, Regina—Lumsden, SK]

Mr. Speaker, it is my honour this afternoon to join with my colleagues of this assembly to extend deepest sympathies on behalf of the New Democratic Party caucus to the family of the late Doug Neil, the former member for Moose Jaw in Saskatchewan.

We are very saddened to learn about Mr. Neil's death. We do acknowledge that he and his family committed a great deal of time and energy, to serving Saskatchewan, to serving Canada and to serving the farming community in western Canada.

Along with my deskmate, the member for Saint John, a Conservative Party member, and on behalf of the NDP members, I offer my deepest sympathies to the family.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that this House approves in general the budgetary policy of the government; the amendment; and the amendment to the amendment.

The Budget

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, after listening to the response to the budget proposal of Tuesday and examining very carefully the comments of members of the opposition, outside commentators and others, I am struck by one very sad and disappointing realization.

People still have not come to grips with the fact that there is a jobs crisis in this country just as there is a jobs crisis right around the world. They have not really come to terms with the reality but we are going to have to look at a fundamental change in employment strategy for this country and begin to make the changes to make it work.

The Bloc Quebecois, out of sheer partisanship, is claiming that the budget is an attack on the unemployed. However, what it neglects to say is that the budget is an attack on unemployment. The Bloc prefers to see people remain on unemployment insurance rather than have a chance at getting a job.

The difference is that we want people to go back to work while they want to protect the status quo. They want to protect the old way and not look to create new opportunities.

The Reform Party has elevated the reduction of the deficit to an end in itself, not what it will do, not what impact it might have, but an end in itself to the point even that the member for Medicine Hat rises in this House and says that we should have a complete cancellation of government programs for training at a time when every single whip would know that the best investment we can make is in the people of this country.

The outside commentators who have commented on the budget have said that the government in reducing UI benefits, is doing what the Conservatives said they were going to do. What they ignore is how the changes we made are designed to put people back to work.

It is about time in this Chamber, in this city and across this country that we begin to examine seriously how to create work, how to find work for Canadians, how we distribute work and how we prepare people for work. That is the overriding, ever compelling responsibility of this government and it should be the responsibility of all members of this Chamber.

The shortage of jobs is world-wide. We know that. It is not simply happening in Canada. In two weeks time, there will be a major job summit of the G-7 countries at which we are going to come together to examine this shrinkage of employment, the shredding of jobs.

The OECD has said that the number one employment problem in European countries is the lack of job creation. We are finding increasingly that all the old standards, all the old formulas no longer work. One pushes the levers of productivity, competition and growth and it does not end up in jobs. It is like pushing a wet string.

Therefore we have to put our minds to the serious question of how we begin to find jobs. That means that we have to take a look at what is happening in the employment market of this country. For example, 10 years ago part-time work was about 10 per cent of all jobs created. It is now close to 20 per cent.

In the 1990s all new jobs will require a minimum of post-secondary education. Between 1990 and 1993 jobs held by university graduates increased by 17 per cent, those held by high school graduates increased .5 per cent, and the jobs held by those who did not graduate from high school decreased by 17 per cent.

That is an enormous revolution in the world of work. We have members in this House unable, unwilling and not ready to begin facing that new reality, talking about defending the old ways of doing things. The world of work is changing and it is about time members opposite began to change with it.

I have just come from a meeting of a group of labour leaders, business leaders and academics, a special group I have established to look at this question of work, the distribution of work, and who are prepared to join a common cause to look at this issue. The conclusion at the first meeting is clear. The traditional strategies of productivity and economic growth are not working any more. The time for political posturing is over.

I would say to members who have spent a great deal of time in this House, Reform members, Bloc members, our own members, we must make Parliament relevant again. The best way to make Parliament relevant is to start talking about relevant things such as how we get people back to work.

That is what the budget of Tuesday did. It began to set the stage, the foundation, the framework by which we can begin to create a new employment strategy for Canadians. That is what Canadians want. That is why they elected us in October.

All the other smoke-screens and masquerades and charades that we have heard will not mask the fundamental fact that the deep, abiding, overwhelming commitment of all members of this government is to get Canadians back to work. We invite members opposite to help us in that task. Just take a look, let us

clear away all the attempts to short-circuit and create smoke-screens.

Let me give some clear indication of our commitment to job creation. The leader of the Reform Party wanted to know what we are going to do about it.

The infrastructure program has been part of the budget, 65,000 direct jobs and perhaps close to 130,000 indirect jobs as a result. The youth service program has 17,000 as a first estimate. By an interim program to help get young people from school into the workplace we are talking about 60,000. On the reduction of the UI premiums alone, from a statutory requirement to be raised to $3.30 by 1995 will be brought down to $3.00 which in itself will create 40,000 jobs.

On a rough total, my mathematics are pretty simple, that adds up to over 180,000 to 200,000 jobs forecast by direct initiatives of this government alone.

We believe that will set the climate in which the private sector can respond. It will begin to set the engine rolling, it will begin to put a catalyst in the system so once again people will no longer have the insecurity of not knowing where the jobs are. They will know they have a government that cares where their jobs are and that is going to do something about it.

When we hear all these cherry-picking criticisms, let us not forget the central task that we have to begin to mould our programs, our initiatives and our policies around that central fundamental issue of how to get people working again.

Let me talk for a minute about the unemployment insurance changes. Members opposite have made a great deal of effort to try to distort the actual meaning of what took place. How can they distort the fact that in every single consultation that the Minister of Finance and, in every single meeting right across this country, we heard small business say to us that if we reduce the premiums, if we begin to reduce the burden of the payroll tax, if we begin to show for the first time that we are prepared to give small business a chance, it will go out and create work for Canadians?

That is exactly what we have done. We have started a contract with the small business community across this country to say: We are beginning to do our part, now do yours. That is the message in the budget.

To give one example, if there is a small enterprise of 100 employees, the net effect of the changes announced by the Minister of Finance would be a net saving to that employer of $30,000. There is one new job all by itself. What is wrong with that and why do members opposite oppose creating another new job in a small business?

I want answers from them because they have not given them so far. All they are asking is how do we keep people on unemployment insurance. They do not ask how we put people back in the work place. That is the question they should be asking themselves.

Certainly we have made a very clear linkage between one's work history and the amount of benefits provided. Some ask why. I would like to cite a couple of examples. It is time we began to break that sense that UI itself has become part of the wage scale of so many Canadians.

I have a copy of a letter written to the Minister of Finance from someone living in a small town in British Columbia. The letter says: "The people in this town do the necessary work and then refuse any further work until next year. They feel that the only time they need to work is to build up their UI claims and that they do not feel the need to do further work". The sad part about this is that they say their children are beginning to do the same.

We are building a culture in which we are saying that the only requirement is to get a bare minimum of 10 weeks and then one can be on pogey for the next 42 weeks. There is no relationship between work and benefit. We believe that unemployment insurance is crucial. It is a vital program. It is an essential program but it shall not be used to provide a replacement for work. It should be simply-

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

That is what the members opposite want us to do. They want to perpetuate a system that is killing jobs in this country and destroying the incentive to work.

I think it is disgraceful at this time when there are so many unemployed Canadians that we have an opposition that says keep them that way, do not try to put them back to work.

Mr. Speaker, that is the position of the Bloc Quebecois. It prefers unemployment to jobs.

The fact of the matter is we have also said that we will begin to change our system to respond to need, that we recognize there are large numbers of people in that system who need special assistance.

Again we changed the UI program to ensure that those who have the greatest need will receive the greatest benefits and we have raised the benefits.

Some journalists yesterday asked me how we are different from the Tories. When we changed UI conditions we brought down benefits as a result to change work. When we changed benefits we made sure those most in need had the highest level of benefits.

We also have made fundamental changes to the voluntary quit portion to change the onus of responsibility from the employee to the employer to make sure there is a built-in fairness in the system. That is how we are different. We care about the workers.

The hon. member laughs. That is the hon. member who will stand in her place and say do something about social housing to create jobs but at the same time supports the party which has no interest in creating jobs by bringing down UI premiums, by changing the world of UI so that people have a chance.

That is the problem. I do not think that party is really interested in getting Canadians back to work. Its real agenda is to provide delay, distortion, to show that federalism does not work so its own self-prophecy of separatism will be the agenda, not putting people back to work. That is the real, true agenda of the Bloc Quebecois.

We fully recognize that those changes in themselves are not enough. They are just the beginning. That is why we have put in place within the budget a fundamental restructuring of those programs at the federal level. It can provide a new framework for employment in this country, our training programs, our employment programs, our educational programs, our assistance programs, and unemployment insurance, and to begin to provide the integration of those programs so they begin to reinforce one another, they begin to provide a synergy of assistance and are not simply used as a way of propping up old ways of doing things.

We recognize that action is required. We recognize that Canadians have voted for us, not for more studies, not for lengthy and delayed consultations. They want action. They want this government and this Parliament to show that it is ready to work to put Canadians back to work. That is the message we had and that is the message in the budget. That is why we believe that it is going to be absolutely crucial in the days and weeks ahead that we begin to build upon this framework.

A week or so ago we met with the provincial governments which have offered their full co-operation in a major program of reform. They are not hanging back, obscuring and obfuscating like members opposite have done during this budget debate. They are prepared to get in there and work.

What is more important is that in joint co-operation with the provinces we have come to an agreement that over the next year or two we will initiate a number of new programs targeted at the most chronically unemployed Canadians, those who have been on welfare for a long period of time, those who have exhausted benefits and those who have various employment handicaps.

The Minister of Finance has dedicated $800 million over the next two years to give this country a brand new lease on innovation. We are challenging the provinces, ourselves, employers, business groups and labour unions to become part of the new thinking and approach to the world of employment. We are prepared to use scarce resources to make sure that those hardest hit, those most in need, those with the longest record of unemployment will be given that assistance.

I can report to members of the House today that already we have applications and proposals from every single province in this country. That is the kind of spirit of co-operation we need. That is the kind of working together that Canadians expect. That is the kind of esprit that Canadians voted for, that we have a notion as to how we can bring Canadians together to reason together and find ways of working together. That is the kind of invitation we keep putting out to members of the opposition to respond to.

Of course they do not want to co-operate. We know why they do not. We know what their agenda is. We hear it every day in the House. Co-operation is not part of their make-up. Working together as Canadians is not part of their make-up. Trying to make this country economically strong and firm again is not part of their make-up. They have a very different, destructive, negative agenda but we will not let them succeed. We will not let them have their way because we want to put Canadians back to work.

We believe that the budget is the first step in giving Canadians a sense of a new direction, a sense that they recognize that there is now a plan in place, that we are moving toward a new employment strategy, that we will begin to work within the programs of our own level of government, work with provinces and work with the private sector to give that sense that we can begin to reorganize, restructure and reform the system of employment in this country.

I do not pretend it is going to be easy. I do not say it is something that is going to happen overnight. I recognize the difficulties of it. However, I also recognize that if we do nothing about it, if we simply hang on to the old shibboleth, if we simply echo the old arguments, if we simply hang on to the status quo then nothing will be done. We will not be able to have a better trained population. We will not be able to say to our young people that we are going to give them a chance to have a first time job with real employment, not to go on UI as their first source of income. We will not be able to say to older workers that we are prepared to help them get back to work.

My colleague, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, and I are presently working with other ministers on a program in the Atlantic in order to say to the 35,000 to 40,000 people in the fishing industry who have seen their livelihood disappear that we are prepared to give them a five year commitment of

long-term stability, to change their training, to change their careers and to put them back to work on eco tourism, aquaculture, restoring the resources, conserving the reap of the natural riches of the Atlantic provinces so they will no longer have to say, when they get up in the morning: "I have nothing to do. I am waiting for the fish to come back".

We are going to help them to go back to work and to put the fish back. They have been harvesting for 20 years. Now we think we can help them plan for the next 10. That is what we want to do. That is the new way of thinking about things. We are again working in co-operation with the provinces, the unions and the industry to make it happen.

I think that this is the great crusade for this Parliament. This is the great mission that we have before us. How do we once again give Canadians a sense of the dignity of work, the opportunity to have a livelihood based upon their labours and their creative talents, something that is the entitlement and the right of every Canadian?

It will not be perfect and we will not fill every hole. We are now putting in place a youth service corps for community employment, an intern program for workplace training, and major changes to student aid and education so we can provide serious incentives to get back to school and get back to work. We are basically providing a guarantee to all our young people from 18 to 21 that if they want to improve themselves, if they want to go to work, if they want to change their skills, the federal government is there to help. Those are the kinds of things we are working on.

Mr. Speaker, you have been very kind in allowing me to speak this full period of time. I hope that what we have been able to convey to members of this House and to Canadians listening that the need for a new employment strategy is paramount. The foundations were laid in the budget of our finance minister, but we have a lot of work to do yet.

We have enormous work to do in this Parliament in coming together to put forward ideas, to provide a forum for Canadians to come together and present their solutions. We have an enormous amount of work to do in working in our own communities to change the attitudes of business and labour and community groups to begin seeing that employment is the major priority. We have a lot of work to do ourselves, to begin to understand that we can no longer separate or rely on the old habits and old ways of thinking.

If we do it right, if we are able to mobilize ourselves into this new world of work, to face the new realities that we all have to experience, then I believe that at the end of this Parliament we will be able to say to Canadians we have done well by helping them to get back to work.

That is our purpose and our mission.

[Benoît Tremblay, Bloc, Rosemont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, when one has a little parliamentary experience and hears a minister make, in reply to the budget speech or as a follow-up to the budget speech, the kind of partisan remarks the Minister for Human Resources Development just made, you can be sure that he is hiding something.

He spent half of his speech blaming the opposition. Yet, he is the one who ran an entire election campaign on job creation. The truth is plain and simple and, if it was easy to speak the truth, then the minister could speak it calmly. Canadians would understand.

Why does the minister have to make such a fuss, raise his voice and make accusations? The reason is simple. I cannot say that he is lying, of course, but I can say that he is not telling the whole truth. The truth of the matter is quite simple. They are making $5.5 billion worth of cuts on the backs of the unemployed, cutting $2.5 billion in social assistance and there is no telling what is going to happen two years from now to post-secondary education, I mean federal transfer payments to the provinces in that area, but one thing is sure, we can expect cuts. We do not have the individual amounts for social assistance and post-secondary education, but the combined amount is in the budget.

The minister talks about job creation. He did so during the entire campaign. Yet, in January, the government decided to collect an extra $800 million in UI premiums. And now, it is telling us that in 1995 it is going to reduce the premium rate and roll it back to its previous level. That will happen next year.

The loss of 40,000 jobs has just been announced, and we will have more jobs in 1995. Of course, this is making the unemployment situation worse, so benefits have to be cut. Everyone can see that you are cutting benefits. Everyone can see that you are getting ready to cut social assistance. That is clear from your budget.

It apparently contains measures for businesses. As we said before, Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General of Canada clearly demonstrated that Canadian corporations were hiding millions of dollars in international tax havens. Yet, there is only one tiny little measure with regard to banks and insurance companies in this budget, and it will not be implemented before November 1995.

In the Globe and Mail this morning banks were reported as saying: ``We did not get an answer yet. We are waiting. It is only for 1995, anyway''. Basically, what they mean is that things can change between now and then. Cuts on the other hand take effect immediately.

I would ask the minister to calmly tell us the truth on this. He does not need to shout if he wants to get his message across to the Canadian people. Neither does he need to accuse the opposition. If he has positive steps to introduce, we are prepared to listen.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order! I recognize the hon. Minister of Human Resources Development.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, in response to the hon. member who said that there were all these cuts taking place in the budget and so on, I would remind him that there is a need in any budget to balance the objectives. One of the most important is to make sure that the fiscal stability of the country is held in a position which is respected by international finance.

I would like to cite a very important authority on this matter. I quote from a page of Hansard of May 4, 1989.

We never see any recognition of the fact that we have throughout the country a responsibility for public finances and that those finances must be absolutely sound if we are to maintain social programs.

In other words, says the speaker, our responsibility is not just to Canadians living today who are having trouble but also to future generations. He goes on to talk about the need to handle the debt and deficit problems. The authority I cite is the-

The authority I just quoted is the hon. leader of the Bloc Quebecois, when he was a member of the Conservative government. He has changed his position since he left the Mulroney government to become leader of the Bloc Quebecois.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Many members would like to speak. Is the minister finished?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I understand. I would just like to simply have the amount of time that the hon. member took in posing the question. I think he missed it. I do not think he was in the House. I just want to point out to him that under the direct job creation measures proposed in the budget, not just the general economic climate ones, we are talking about 180,000 new jobs being created as a result. That seems to me to be a pretty good start.

[Jack Frazer, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I was interested in the minister's comments about selective attention. Basically I think what he was saying was tunnel vision. He was referring to his aim to achieve jobs for Canadians. He referred to the Reform aim or our concentration on the deficit as the be all and end all.

However, in answer to the questions posed to the Minister of Finance less than an hour ago, after finally admitting that his eventual goal should be the achievement of a balanced budget, he volunteered the information, "and that would allow us to reduce taxes". By reducing taxes you enable business to expand and to generate jobs. These are long-term jobs.

If I may quote the hon. minister, he has invested $6 billion, $2 billion from the federal government, $2 billion from the provincial government and $2 billion from the municipal government, all from the same taxpayer and this is going to create 60,000 jobs, I think he said, with various off-shuttles. But these are short-term jobs and they are bought with borrowed money.

I think the answer to the problem of Canada is to get our fiscal situation right and to generate long term jobs so that we own our future rather than owing it to somebody else.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, there may be no argument about the question of getting the fiscal situation in order and bringing down the deficit. It is a question of how you want to do it. The Reform Party says the only way to do it is to cut all kinds of expenditures which would throw tens of thousands of Canadians out of work. That is what they are talking about. They are saying we did not go far enough. We have members here who are saying that we went too far.

They are saying that the kind of Draconian measures proposed by the Reform Party would have the unemployment rate in this country going up to 13 per cent, 14 per cent, 15 per cent. We are saying that the only way to ultimately bring down the deficit is to get Canadians back to work, get them back creating revenue for their families. Get them off unemployment insurance. Get them back paying taxes. The responsibility of the government is to provide the stimulus to do that, to create a climate in which government can give a signal, a message to the private sector that the hard days are over and that they should get back and create work.

In my speech I asked: What is one of the important signals? By reducing unemployment insurance premiums from a projected statutory rate of $3.30, it brings it down to $3 which for every company of 100 employees puts $30,000 back in the pocket of the employer; it puts $80 to $100 back in the pocket of the employee. That employee can go out and buy a kitchen table or his kid's shoes. That is how we are going to create deficit reduction, not by the cut and slash program-

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with attention to the very aggressive speech by the Minister of Human Resources Development. He launched several attacks on the Bloc Quebecois. He occasionally uses progressive terms to outline conservative, sometimes right-wing policies.

Instead of tackling unemployment, the budget goes after the unemployed themselves. The Bloc Quebecois worries about the most disadvantaged in our society: unemployed workers and welfare recipients. I come from the union movement, Mr. Speaker, and we are not alone in our fight against the minister's budget and his cuts to unemployment insurance. I had feedback from three Quebec unions, namely the FTQ, the CEQ and the CNTU. I also heard from the Canadian Labour Congress. Over two million Canadians are very concerned about the govern-

ment's budget. The president of the FTQ, Clément Godbout, said, "To effectively tackle the debt and deficit problem, we must put people back to work by creating jobs. However, this concern does not appear in the budget". For the FTQ, this is incomprehensible. Not only does the government not do anything to create jobs, but it is hitting the unemployed very hard by taking $6 billion over the next three years from the unemployment insurance fund.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order, please. The hon. member must conclude his comments and ask his question as soon as possible.

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

What does the Minister of Human Resources Development think of the unions' unanimous opposition to this government's budget, to its cuts to unemployment insurance and social programs?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, what the unions said, as reported to us by the hon. member, is false, is not true. Indeed, the budget we brought down will create 180,000 jobs. I hope that the hon. member will send to union members in his riding messages of hope and not the ones being sent by the Bloc Quebecois which say there is no hope for the unemployed. We are sending a positive message of hope. I hope he will relay it.

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I cannot help but be astounded how a minister of a government can stand up and continuously say that spending more government money will create more jobs. Ultimately that money is going to turn into a higher deficit, more debt. When is that going to get paid off?

My question though is on the infrastructure program. I was told very recently by a mayor of a municipality that the infrastructure program was basically going to accommodate their program to build sewers and roads. All it is doing quite frankly is costing them one-third of the cost instead of the whole full cost-

[The Deputy Speaker]

The Minister of Human Resources Development.

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

What happens-