House of Commons Hansard #79 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was crime.

Topics

Young Offenders ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

I forgot your first question. I do not believe that is what the minister means by changing the onus for 15 to 17-year olds to be tried in adult court. He said they should be tried in adult court and it should be shown why they should not be tried in adult court. It is clear they will be tried for very violent crimes in adult court and the onus is on them to prove that they should not be tried in this court. I think that is very appropriate.

Second, you talked about lowering the age from 12. I made it quite clear that I do not believe we can put 12-year olds and under 12-year olds in the same category. I do not believe that the abstract concepts of crime and punishment really apply to young people. I say this from experience, both as a parent and as a practitioner who had lots of young people in my practice.

We need to help these young people by prevention, by remedial help and by helping their parents with the resources they need to help bring their children into line. However we should not be throwing these children in jail at all.

Young Offenders ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Bellehumeur Bloc Berthier—Montcalm, QC

Mr. Speaker, according to Statistics Canada, British Columbia has the third highest youth crime rate in Canada after the Yukon and the Northwest Territories.

Could the hon. member for Vancouver Centre tell me what impact the amendments to the Young Offenders Act will have on young people in two specific areas, namely the tougher sentences and the referral to adult court which I, like the hon. member, think is automatic?

Young Offenders ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

With respect to increased sentences, it is in fact appropriately punishing the young people for the very serious crimes. Sorry, what was the second part of your question?

Young Offenders ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Order. I think we are just about out of time. The hon. member is going to be the next speaker so he will have a chance later on.

Young Offenders ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ovid Jackson Liberal Bruce—Grey, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to digress for a moment. Fifty years ago today something significant happened. I want to make reference to it.

There were three Victoria Cross medalists in my riding of Bruce-Grey, Messrs. Bishop, Holmes and Currie. Billy Bishop was a World War I flying ace. He worked as a consultant and helped to train people for the second world war. David Currie was married to an Owen Sound girl by the name of Isabelle Silue and I understand she is still alive and lives in Ottawa. Thomas Holmes was 18-years old-these people were only between 18 and 25 years with an average of maybe 22 years old-when he stormed a bunker two or three times, giving his life to throw a grenade into a pillbox. Eleven Germans had surrendered to him. I would like to pay tribute to them as well as one more person,

Lloyd Clark who was at Passchendaele and was also on the beaches of Normandy.

Ever since I rose in the House to respond to the throne speech, one of the things I hoped we could do was work collaboratively together. The Young Offenders Act is one of those topics. All members owe it to their communities to make them safer.

We owe it to Canadians to be as factual and as analytical as possible in dealing with the issue that most critically involves striking a balance between the rights of the victim, the offender and society in general.

No matter what our political stripe or gender or cultural perception, we must get this one right. In our daily work we deal with tax issues, procedural issues, political issues to mention a few. I would argue with my colleagues on all sides of the House that this is one on the human side like no other.

Simply put, all members in the House and Canadians in general want to be in a community that is safe and secure. This is a public policy issue and a priority for us as a government.

In this democratic forum I call on all sides to make sure that we benefit from the discussions here. The hon. member for Saint-Hubert made a good presentation and a passionate one. I know that she does a good job for the province of Quebec, notwithstanding the fact that she disagrees with us completely and would like to make an amendment to the act.

In the era of Aristotle and Plato the justice issue was discussed. I am intrigued by the fact that in this debate in the year 1994 we are attempting to debate that very notion. This is an intergenerational problem and it requires from time to time that in places like the House of Commons we debate this kind of policy.

Margaret Mead, the sociologist that studied society, said that a family that did not care for all of the children within that family was a family that would fail. In every society she studied there were problems in terms of the way the family is.

The way we deal with our young people is very important. Recently, during the election, I had a whole lot of street kids right in front of my campaign office. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, by the end of the election they were all working with me. One guy even got five bucks. He got his picture in the papers. They changed completely. They tell me that a lot of adults walk right by them, not admitting they exist. Sometimes we have to look at ourselves when dealing with young people.

Recent events within various communities have increased public fears, fueled the debate and intensified the attacks on the Young Offenders Act. Canadians empathize and are saddened by the tragedies. However I strongly feel that we must analyse and make sure that we do not get into misinformation and prompt an emotional response to this question. The minister is trying to find a good balance to make sure that some of those needs are met by allowing youths to say why they should not go to adult court, of sharing information with the police, the teachers and the people in the community that require it and using all those agencies within the communities to make sure that when the person is convicted that they are going to be able to work with them in order to get them rehabilitated.

It is all well and good to put a person in jail, but sooner or later he has to come out. If the apprenticeship they get in prison is one that teaches them to be criminals, that is what you are going to get. If the response is one we can deal with in our communities, which is one of caring and and trying to find out what makes a person tick, there are certainly going to be some individuals who will respond. When I took psychology we studied people with the xyy chromosome and some postulated that there was not much that could be done with people who had that tendency.

If members watched the movie One Flew over the Cuckoos Nest they will remember McMurphy. At that time frontal lobotomies were given which removed parts of the brain. Members will remember that when they did that to McMurphy he was no longer the person we knew. That was something that happened in mental hospitals and was a response to a problem of humanity.

Human beings are very complex organisms. I listened to members from both sides of the House saying: "We are legislators, we pass legislation". One thing I want to say in passing is that in this legislation we are trying to strike a balance. There can be no perfect solution because God created each one of us differently but equally. It is that diversity which has made us the kinds of people we are. We allow that.

There are societies where they use very harsh methods. I just came back from South Africa. In South Africa if a person committed a crime and was caught they were brutalized, beaten, their families were intimidated, incarcerated and virtually disappeared. Some were even killed.

Do you know what is the response to that kind of harsh system? If criminals saw your face they would kill you. It got very bad in that community.

Statistics from the United States tell us that more people are incarcerated there than in any other country in the world. They have extremely violent crime activity and it seems to be increasing so I do not know if that system would help us.

Incarceration costs us a lot of money. Why not provide some means of restitution, some means of rehabilitation. Let us make sure we have the infrastructure to ensure that the needs of people are met in our communities.

I fully support the example in the recent study by the John Howard Society. It estimates the cost of keeping a young person incarcerated as $191 per day. The minister mentioned earlier that it costs some $70,000 to $100,000 to keep a person in jail.

If those resources were reallocated and we do not put young people in jail for activities that are not severe and could be solved, we could reallocate those funds to those people, making them into productive people in our communities and getting them back into society.

A lot of human tragedy is involved in this debate, both on the victim's side and the offender's side. I do not want to make light of what has happened in some peoples' lives in terms of the just desserts situation or any other situation that has occurred within the last little while.

The amount of crime in our society, as based on studies, is really going down. According to StatsCan, the number of youths arrested for all crimes fell by 4.7 per cent in 1991. Less than 3 per cent of young offenders charged with a violent crime committed a serious personal injury crime.

The murder and manslaughter rate is less than 1 per cent. As bold and horrible as violent crime is we in government have a duty to act responsibly. It is correct for us not to panic and that we make the changes being considered by the minister.

No one can critically analyse youth crime without considering societal conditions and the root causes. There are simple solutions to this. I would ask members to give this the weight it deserves in this discussion.

The proposed amendments to the Young Offenders Act reflect a reality. We know that youth crime is related to societal conditions, poverty, school failure, substance abuse, child abuse and neglect, spouse abuse, unemployment and dysfunctional families. However this does not make excuses for violent offenders.

Therefore, a balanced approach by the minister is what we would require. I urge all members on this side to take a balanced approach. We do live in a society in which we have to allow people to reach their potential. We do not incarcerate people. That is not our technique. I think the minister has found the best balance in his solution.

Young Offenders ActGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Bellehumeur Bloc Berthier—Montcalm, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to assure the hon. member that, first of all, the opposition will co-operate on an issue like young offenders. We will certainly work on and examine this bill very seriously.

However, when we deal with such an important issue on which there seems to be unanimity in Quebec, a unanimity that is growing in the other provinces, you may find that our involvement will be one of opposing this measure. But you can be sure that we do it for young people, because 10-, 11-, 12-, 17- and 18-year-olds are not here to defend themselves, few groups will defend them, and I think it is our duty to do so.

However, I have a little question for the hon. member. I listened attentively to his speech and I like his approach on the issue of young offenders. Compared with the justice minister's bill before us, which everyone, except the government, of course, recognizes as a more repressive approach than that of the hon. member, which, as I understood from his speech, emphasizes rehabilitation and social reintegration.

I would like the hon. member to tell me where he stands on all this, how he reconciles his approach with that of the minister through Bill C-37.

Young Offenders ActGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Ovid Jackson Liberal Bruce—Grey, ON

Mr. Speaker, I apologize to the member for not speaking in his first language.

In my previous job as a mayor one of the things police asked is that the names be made public. I believe there is a mechanism for that. In some cases when young offenders only had a five-year sentence they knew that the five years went very quickly and that did not give them a chance to be introspective and to take courses to get rid of their inhibitions and some of the problems that they had in working in society. The latitude that the minister put in there will help.

I say to the member opposite that basically what we have is a tightening up, to some degree. He is right, we are moving toward a more strict society. In order for a society to work and to have the judges, police and teachers on side we have to take some of these measures.

Young Offenders ActGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

Reform

Ken Epp Reform Elk Island, AB

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the member who just gave a very good speech.

I agree with him in the sense that we ought not to be incarcerating people thinking that thereby we can make them good. As a matter of fact, I do not believe there is a law that we can pass that will make people good.

I grew up in a very special home, one in which we were not permitted-I grew up before there was television-to listen to radio programs which had violence. We were not permitted to settle our differences with violence. It had to be with negotiation and compromise. As a youngster I grew up so that as an adult for me to impose a criminal act on someone else was not even within the realm of my thinking.

How does the member propose to deal with those people who did not have that training, who do not have that built in morality that restrains them? How do we restrain those who actually find it very easy to pick up an axe, a gun or a knife to harm other people?

Young Offenders ActGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Ovid Jackson Liberal Bruce—Grey, ON

Mr. Speaker, I do not know if I have enough time for this question but I will try to answer it very quickly.

I guess censorship is another question. We do not censor things. People are supposed to know what is reality and what is not. I agree with the member. Most of us on this side of the House who grew up during his time know that there were very strict acts and most of us tried to confront that.

There is a great tendency within society as it stands now. I taught high school before I came here. A child may be subjected to four or five parents and there are some complications in those relationships. In a lot of cases they are given love. Talk to people from the children's aid or anybody who takes kids in who cannot deal with them. Unfortunately there are no tests for families, and part of our problem is to try to do that.

The other alternative is to lock them up, shoot them or hang them, and that is not what we do in our society.

Young Offenders ActGovernment Orders

5:35 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Bellehumeur Bloc Berthier—Montcalm, QC

Mr. Speaker, in a few words, to begin, I think I can say, and not be too far off the mark, that an elephant has just brought forth a mouse; the elephant, of course, is the problem of young offenders, you understand.

Fortunately, the Bloc Quebecois has proposed an amendment which the House can accept, for the sake of young people who need help in Canada.

After receiving much media coverage, reading thousands of briefs and attending federal-provincial conferences, the minister let it be understood that the problem of young offenders was very complex and deserved special attention to produce amendments for correcting the deficiencies in the system. The big problem of youth is supposed to be solved with the bill we have in our hands.

So where do we stand? What is the wonder prescription to achieve this objective? So as not to be accused of distorting the major points of the bill, I will use the justice minister's press release of June 2. Here are the ingredients of the wonder formula to deal with the problems of young offenders.

First of all, the minister proposes extending the penalties for adolescents found guilty in youth court of first- or second-degree murder to ten and seven years respectively. What a stroke of inspiration. We see that the essential element of the bill is repression. Indeed, the government stresses this point at the outset so that everyone understands.

Secondly, the minister proposes referring to adult court 16- and 17-year-olds accused of an offence involving serious bodily harm, unless they can convince a judge that the objectives of public protection and rehabilitation can both be met if they are judged in a youth court.

This is an important change. In our system, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty and the Crown must prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty; however, if the accused is 16 or 17 years old, he is presumed to be an adult for the purposes of his trial unless the public interest does not require it.

Under our laws, an underage person will have to show that the public can be protected and he can be returned to society if his case is referred to youth court; this is a dangerous breach of legal principles which concerns me greatly.

With this bill, the government is dividing 16- and 17-year-olds into two classes: persons under 18 who are docile and can be rehabilitated and those who, at age 16 and 17, are incorrigible, as implied in the bill. If we can speak of the long arm of the law, we can now say that it is also selective.

How can such unfair treatment be compatible with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms? In any event, we in Quebec have at least 25 years of experience in reintegrating young offenders in society. Although we need to invest to expand the program, and although I agree that a lot remains to be done, we have a system to provide support to a young person who needs help. But in those English-speaking provinces where rehabilitation is not a priority, where will a 16 or 17-year-old go, even if he asks for protection under the Young Offenders Act? I am quite sure that legal precedents will quickly be created and based on the principle that a 16 or 17-year-old must be held accountable for his acts, must be treated like an adult, must be dealt with by an adult court, and must also be sentenced as an adult.

In the reform he tabled last week, the minister also lengthens the sentences to be served by 16 and 17-year old offenders who are found guilty of murder by an adult court, before they can be eligible for parole. Again, the underlying message being conveyed is one of repression.

The fourth element mentioned by the minister to help young people avoid getting into trouble with the law is to improve the sharing of information between professionals, for example school authorities, the police and some public representatives, when public security is threatened, and to retain criminal records for a longer period in the case of young offenders who have committed serious crimes.

I am curious to see how clause 38.(1.14) will be interpreted as regards public security.

Many well-meaning but tactless people will append the criminal record and the court order to the academic record, precisely for so-called security reasons. What a nice introduc-

tion, for the young person, to this self-proclaimed tolerant and generous society.

The message is quite clear when you read the bill, especially as regards that issue. It says: you are a petty criminal and we will make sure that you do not forget that. We will try to ensure that you are periodically reminded of that by appending this information to your school record.

If the provisions of this bill are strictly implemented, a young delinquent will spend more time in an institution, will have less chance of rehabilitating himself and, when he gets out, will be a branded person. The last ingredient of the minister's recipe is rehabilitation and treatment. We cannot say much on this because the minister certainly did not elaborate on this particular point. He merely said that, in the case of young offenders, rehabilitation and treatment will be used when appropriate.

I am sorry, but I believe that a 10, 11, 14 or 17 year old has a right to whatever rehabilitation or treatment is required in his case. This should not be a conditional but, rather, an unconditional provision in the bill. Once again, our views are very different.

The Minister of Justice told us he consulted a lot of people, including representatives of the legal profession, police officers, school authorities, provinces and many others. Among all of the proposed amendments, I wonder which ones were requested by the Quebec Minister of Justice, the Director of Youth Protection, the Quebec Judicial Council or even the National Assembly of Quebec? Which criminologist or sociologist in Quebec would want such repression? Who in Quebec asked for this kind of amendments?

If the minister held consultations, and I am sure he did, we can only conclude that, for the government to have come up with such a flimsy effort, as I said earlier, the Liberal Party of Canada must have felt unbearable internal pressure from Western Canada. To please the majority, they once again ignored the will of Quebecers, even though Quebec had made it very clear what it wanted. To be heard, the National Assembly of Quebec as well as Bloc members in this House have always maintained their positions.

As I intend to make myself clear, maybe for the last time, I will quote none other that the Quebec Minister of Justice whom the federal minister allegedly consulted. On May 4, Mr. Roger Lefebvre, Liberal minister in the Quebec government, said: "I think it is important for the federal and provincial governments to focus their actions more on rehabilitation than on repression. Young offenders need help and support to re-enter society. It is important not to condemn in advance all young offenders who commit violent crimes".

I wonder if the minister, a federalist I might add, is happy with the bill introduced by his big brother. Yet, according to the Quebec Minister of Justice, the message was made very clear at the federal-province conference. Mr. Lefebvre sums up his position in this way: "At the federal-provincial conference of the Ministers of Justice which took place in Ottawa on March 23 and 24, I had several opportunities to express the positions of Quebec, particularly on the proposed amendment to the Young Offenders Act. I also said that the Quebec government intends to pursue and intensify its search of durable and effective solutions that will meet the real needs of young people, and leave some hope for their future".

I would like to expand a little bit on that point of view because it is important to understand the inconsistencies in the current situation. I stressed that federal action must be respectful of Quebec jurisdiction and seek to reduce overlapping so that Quebec does not end up with higher costs.

I also indicated that experience in Quebec has shown that the present maximum sentence of five years is adequate for an overwhelming majority of murders committed by young people. The present transfer mechanism for serious offenses makes it possible to judge young offenders in a regular criminal court when their rehabilitation requires a long period of detention that cannot be determined.

And in the last paragraph, we have the explanation of the bill of the federal minister of justice. It is Mr. Lefebvre who says this to the National Assembly on May 4: "It seems to me that it would be more appropriate to make better use of current legislative tools for referrals instead of changing the rules, as some of the other provincial ministers of justice indicated during that federal-provincial conference". That is clear enough. Without having been present at that federal-provincial conference, I can say that Quebec City's concerns did not carry much weight in the decision of the federal justice.

I consider the Minister of Justice a progressive and I have a lot a respect for him but, unfortunately, I have to say that this bill is disappointing and dangerous. With due respect for the opposite opinion, I can say that the alarm has been sounded. Next time, what principle of our justice system will disappear? Who will take the rap so that we can silence and calm right-wing people? This bill misses the target and ignores the real flaws and the present problems.

I hear members of the government telling me that I am playing well my role of official opposition in criticizing a bill coming from the Minister of Justice. However, I will do more than that. Sometimes, I dream about putting myself in the place of a minister to try to understand his position, to follow his logic and to ask myself what I would have done if I had been in his shoes.

In the present case, it has been difficult for me to understand the minister's position and to follow his logic, but in spite of it all, I would have never meddled with the Young Offenders Act.

The problem is not the act, but its application. Indeed, if I had been in the place of the Minister of Justice, I would have outlined the situation in this way. First, I would have encouraged Western provinces and other Canadian provinces to follow the example of Quebec where rehabilitation is the basic objective. In summary, I would not have reinvented the wheel, I would simply have insisted on respect for the meaning and the purpose of the Young Offenders Act as it now stands. We do not even know the results of the latest amendments to the act and we already want to bring in some new ones. We cannot deal with such an issue on the short term, we must know where we are going.

Second, I would have talked about statistics because they are important. The most recent statistics show that crime by youths is declining. The media exaggerate the situation and the public has the wrong impression about today's young people. However, in larger cities, statistics seem to be influenced by a series of factors like the presence of gangs, new cultural communities, et cetera. Some of the things that certain members said in their speeches called this to mind.

Also in my dream, as justice minister, I would have introduced a program in partnership with the Minister of Human Resources Development in order to encourage the development, effectiveness and efficiency of youth houses, streetworkers, centres and other places for young people, by means of employment and development programs and sections like section 25. I think that prevention, education and consciousness-raising can prevent crime. I would not have condemned anyone but I would have tried to understand the problem and eliminate it at the root. The bill does not mention anything to that effect.

Third, the public rightly responds to the facts reported by the media. One particular case which recently resulted in a general outcry deals with the robbery of a convenience store by minors who were controlled by adults. The organizer of the crime, an adult, was sentenced to two years in jail even if a murder was committed in that store. This kind of case is not new. It is well-known that well organized criminals and unscrupulous bums use young people to do their crimes.

Is the minor the problem or the adult? We all know that a 10 or 11-year-old looks up to his elders. They are prepared to do anything to be accepted, even commit armed robbery or kill someone. In this case, the culprit is not the 10 or 11-year-old. The real criminal, the dangerous offender is the adult who uses a young person for his own perverted ends.

And what did the minister put in his bill to stop this shocking and shameless exploitation of young people? Nothing.

If I were the minister, I would have proposed amendments to the Criminal Code. I would not be satisfied with the current sentences these adults receive when they are caught. A person who conspires with a minor to commit a crime should answer for the same crime as the minor. That is why I would have proposed a new section in the Criminal Code, to follow section 465 which deals with conspiracy, and to be referred to as section 465.1 "conspiracy with a minor".

I am not an expert on legal drafting, but to give hon. members an idea of what I would like to see in this section, I will read you a section that would have read as follows: "Except where otherwise expressly provided by law, the following provisions apply in respect of persons who conspire with minors to cause them to commit offences: (a) everyone who conspires with a minor to cause him to commit an offence in the meaning of section 231, first degree murder or second degree murder, in the meaning of section 239, attempt to commit murder, in the meaning of sections 233 and 234, manslaughter, in the meaning of section 273, aggravated sexual assault, in the meaning of section 268, aggravated assault, is guilty of the indictable offence of which the minor is accused and liable to the same punishment, provided under each of these sections, to which he would be liable if he had himself committed the offence''.

The second paragraph of this section would have read as follows: "Everyone who conspires with a minor or causes him to commit any other offence punishable on summary conviction or an indictable offence is, if the offence is committed by the minor, guilty of the offence as though he had committed the offence himself and is liable to the same punishment".

This section is intended to fill a gap in our legislation. It would send a very clear message that trying to be clever by using young people in our country is a criminal offence. In this way we would deal with the real problem.

Since in many cases, the adult would receive a more severe sentence than the young offender, the objective of this amendment would soon be reached. We cannot just stand there and let a young person's life be ruined. We need constructive proposals. Unfortunately, I am not the Minister of Justice, and this House has to live with Bill C-37, where it looks like in the minister's mind, there has to be a link between repression and crime. However, nothing could be further from the truth.

I believe that we should not forget the extensive study undertaken last year in the United States, in two or three states where the young offender legislation had been amended to lengthen sentences. It shows that, instead of going down as expected, the crime rate among young people went up. How do you explain this? I do not know. I am not a psychologist, but I do

know that it is true. To claim that repression is going to lower the crime rate is ludicrous.

Bill C-37, in its present form, is contrary to Quebec's policy and legislation regarding youth protection. It flies in the face of the motion passed nearly unanimously, on May 5 last, by the Quebec National Assembly, as if we were no longer part of the federal government's concerns. Fortunately, I do hope that the House will seize the opportunity to backtrack offered by the Bloc member for Saint-Hubert, with her proposed amendment. There is no shame in admitting that one was wrong, and I believe that this amendment gives the House of Commons the opportunity to acknowledge that it is proceeding a bit too fast with an issue as important as young offenders. It could be that the consultations undertaken by the minister did not yield the expected results.

We must realize that the decision the House is going to make regarding young offenders will have far-reaching consequences since it will alter the course of their lives. It is not a decision we can make lightly.

In conclusion, I would also mention people we have not talked about yet, except in a question I asked one member, and who are not mentioned in the repressive amendments of the minister. I am referring to native young offenders.

If we look at the figures of Statistics Canada, as we go west the crime rate increases. In the Yukon and the Northwest Territories the figures are alarming. The rate is over 30 per cent in the Northwest Territories. What is the minister going to do with all these young people, where is he going to put them?

Is he going to build special institutions for young offenders? Is he going to increase funding for legal aid? Who is going to assume the defence of the poor? How much is it going to cost? These questions have to be answered and I am very surprised that western members, who claim to be the Official Opposition on certain issues, did not take up the case of the people who elected them and are directly affected by these amendments.

Finally, with these amendments the jails are going to be full, we will have to build more, and there will not be much rehabilitation, because the demand will be much greater than what the province can provide, given that no money was ever invested in rehabilitation and social reintegration.

For all these reasons I will support the Bloc Quebecois' amendment and vote against this bill.

Young Offenders ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Eleni Bakopanos Liberal Saint-Denis, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member opposite a few questions about the information he gave concerning the lack of co-operation or consultation between the Government of Quebec and the Government of Canada.

That is not quite accurate. At any rate, I want to know where he got his information, because I know that the Minister of Justice of Canada did consult his provincial colleague.

Furthermore, we on this side of the House are also concerned about crime prevention. The Minister of Justice said that this is the first in a series of measures that we will bring in as the Government of Canada in a real effort to prevent youth crime. This is not the only measure; it is one of a series that we want to introduce as a government.

As far as repression is concerned, I do not think that the bill is repressive, that is not really what we want to do in the legislation; we want to try to help young people who are involved in crime, to help them so they do not continue on that path all their life, to act early to break the vicious circle of youth crime.

Young Offenders ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Bellehumeur Bloc Berthier—Montcalm, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to answer these questions. First, I said that I was convinced the minister had held consultations.

The problem is that he consulted with his ears plugged. For example, what the Quebec minister of justice asked for and what the legislation now says are two completely different things. In other words, the federal justice minister consulted his provincial counterpart, but did not accept any of his suggestions and rejected everything that Quebec asked for regarding young offenders.

In fact, I believe a unanimous resolution was passed last May 5 by Quebec's National Assembly, asking that the federal justice minister not amend the Young Offenders Act, which works just fine as it is. Of course, there is always room for improvement.

However, it is not by lengthening sentences and by implementing amendments such as these that the objective of the Young Offenders Act will be reached.

According to the justice minister's release, this is just the first stage. The minister seems to want to bring changes in two stages. However, I find this to be a curious strategy, in the sense that we are taking a stand regarding that first stage and will tell the Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs what we expect from a consultation process.

In my opinion, this process is biased and, in any case, it gums up the works for the debate we want to have at the second stage. The hon. member may not be pleased by the fact that I use the term repressive. But take a look at what people say outside this House. Psychologists, criminologists, sociologists, provincial politicians and journalists are almost unanimous in saying that this legislation is repressive.

Out of five salient points mentioned by the minister, three directly relate to longer sentences and to the reversal of the burden of proof in order to be heard by a youth court. I am sorry, but these provisions are repressive. There are no other words for it. Three points out of five-a clear majority-are repressive.

Consequently, I feel I can refer to this bill as a very repressive measure. This answers your three points.

Young Offenders ActGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Reform

Philip Mayfield Reform Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC

Mr. Speaker, on this day, June 6, we remember the principles of peace and freedom and the ability of courageous people to overcome oppression and evil and to maintain these principles. It seems there are certain principles under attack within our own community. People are not at peace; they are not free when they are under threat to their life, their property and their well-being.

My hon. colleague mentioned that a principle of justice has been eradicated by the bill. I would simply like to ask him what principle of justice has been eradicated by the bill.

Young Offenders ActGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Bellehumeur Bloc Berthier—Montcalm, QC

Mr. Speaker, I may not be an expert in criminal law, but I did practice law for seven years and I have always understood two facts about our British-style system of justice. First, a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Second, the burden rests with the Crown to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. In the matter now before us, in Quebec and in other provinces, there are laws on the books that say that a young person is considered to be an adult when he or she reaches 18 years of age. That is a principle. If the proposed legislative changes are adopted, a 16- or 17-year-old could be tried for a crime as a adult. To my mind, this provision flies in the face of the principle whereby everyone is treated equally under the law. In the case of some 16- or 17-year-olds, the government would be saying that while you are considered a minor under certain laws, we have adopted others which say that you are an adult and will be tried as an adult.

I find this approach extremely dangerous. It opens the door to setting aside other, perhaps more important, principles. Just how far is the government prepared to go to appease the people on the right and silence those who may be misinformed or even manipulated by groups who distort the facts?

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6 p.m.

Liberal

John Bryden Liberal Hamilton—Wentworth, ON

Mr. Speaker, I fully support the bill but my colleague opposite raised a concern that I share, that is the whole issue of young people 16 and 17 years of age having to prove to the judge that they should not be transferred to adult court. I agree with him that this would appear to be a problem where the accused is forced to prove his innocence.

However I note the minister said in his remarks today that the final decision on whether or not a young person goes to adult court, if I interpret the minister correctly, is entirely at the discretion of the judge. Surely that answers my concern and the concerns of my colleague opposite.

Young Offenders ActGovernment Orders

June 6th, 1994 / 6 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Bellehumeur Bloc Berthier—Montcalm, QC

As far as referral is concerned, Mr. Speaker, there are two points I have not raised yet, but that really worry me. When we talk about referral, we talk about the whole justice system. This is going to be very costly. I cannot wait to see how much this new referral process will cost to the justice system? Also, this bill will make the procedure more cumbersome.

I would like to give a straight answer to the hon. member, but I seem to have forgotten what was his question was. I think it had to do with judges, but I am not sure. Can he remind me of his question?

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6 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I think another member wishes to ask a question. I will recognize the hon. member for Carleton-Charlotte.

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6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Harold Culbert Liberal Carleton—Charlotte, NB

Mr. Speaker, I must certainly comment on the hon. member's presentation this afternoon. He has made it very clear that he does not agree with the bill the minister has brought forth. We on this side of the House believe that it is a very balanced approach. Today we celebrated the 50th anniversary of D-Day. Times have changed over the past 50 years, there is no question.

I particularly want to zero in and ask a question of the hon. member on the second component of the presentation made by the Minister of Justice with regard to the justice committee taking on a study of the cause, what has caused in recent years the tremendous increase in young offenders.

Having worked with young people over many years in several different capacities it is a concern to me. I know it is to the hon. member. I wonder if he might like to touch on that factor. Ultimately what everyone on this side of the House wants, and I am sure those on the other side of the House, is not to have to deal with the situation because the young people are not getting themselves into those problems.

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6:05 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Bellehumeur Bloc Berthier—Montcalm, QC

Mr. Speaker, answering this question is easy because it is not true that there has been an explosion in youth crime. The statistics even show a decrease except, as I said earlier in my speech, in the major centres like Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver where there are gangs, where new arrivals try to enforce their own brand of justice, and so on.

It is not true that there has been a tremendous increase in youth crime and I think it is wrong to try to give that impression. According to the statistics I have which cover the period from 1972 to 1992, the number of crimes of all kinds is exactly the same, give or take four or five. It is wrong to talk about an increase. We will discuss it in detail in the Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, but it is wrong to talk about an explosion, as we will demonstrate before the committee.

What I do not like in the referral or the minister's request is that we will adopt the Young Offenders Act. The committee considered that, of course, but it also planned a second phase to consider the amendments I want. We know that the minister consulted or at least said he consulted several stakeholders. Does the bill really meet these stakeholders' requests? I doubt it.

I will now take this opportunity to respond to the hon. member who asked me a question earlier that I just remembered. Yes, it is true that, under the referral system, the judges will decide whether or not young offenders will be transferred to adult court. Quebec has room to accommodate these people and I am convinced that the jurisprudence that will evolve in Quebec will be rather similar to that of Ontario but very different from that of Western Canada. Why? Because Quebec and Ontario have started to develop a whole system to accommodate these young people, including youth protection and rehabilitation centres-Quebec already has several such centres.

What will happen in Western Canada and the Northwest Territories? They do not have any rehabilitation centres where they can send their young offenders. So my main conclusion is that the jurisprudence will be much tougher in Western Canada and they will take the opportunity to transfer all these 16- and 17-year-olds to adult court. That is what I question and what I find very dangerous.

I hope I have answered the question this time.

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6:05 p.m.

Etobicoke—Lakeshore Ontario

Liberal

Jean Augustine LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Prime Minister

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to lend my voice to the debate on the proposed amendments to the Young Offenders Act. I stand as someone who has worked for over 30 years in the education system, working with young people as a school teacher, as a vice-principal, as a principal and in several capacities as counsellor. I am also a mother of two black Canadian children. I am very concerned about all Canadian youth, including the situation of black youth in the country.

We heard from across the way that the elephant gave birth to a mouse. This is not reality. We are talking about Bill C-37 which is intent on addressing the reality of the situation that faces us today in our communities.

My constituency office in Etobicoke-Lakeshore receives numerous calls on a daily basis: calls for reforms to the act, calls from Canadians concerned about the safety of their families, concerned about their communities, concerned and fearful when they read the daily barrage of media reports and stories that speak about teenage vandalism, random acts of violence, use of weapons, et cetera. Some of the people I have spoken to about the issue tell me that juveniles are laughing at the present system of justice. They want to see reforms to the Young Offenders Act.

Public consultation has indicated a major dissatisfaction with the present treatment of young offenders. The bill is the justice minister's response to Canadians to provide Canadians with immediate action that would particularly address violent crimes.

I will direct my remarks to the situation around the call for action. On June 2, 1994 the justice minister introduced this comprehensive, two-phase set of proposals to amend portions of the 10-year old Young Offenders Act. These proposals reflect an extensive process of consultation and consideration regarding violent young offenders who commit serious crimes. The proposed amendments will improve the act's ability to deal effectively with serious youth crime and improve public protection.

There are several highlights to these proposals: increased sentences for teenagers convicted of first or second degree murder in youth court; dealing with 16 and 17-year-olds charged with serious personal offences in adult court unless they can show a judge otherwise, and we heard the debate a few minutes ago between the Bloc member and the member on this side of the House about the decision of the judge that public protection and rehabilitation can both be achieved through youth court; and extending the time that 16 and 17-year old young offenders who have been convicted of murder in an adult court must serve before they can be considered for parole.

Bill C-37 calls for improved measures for information sharing between professionals such as school officials, police and selected members of the public when public safety is at risk, as well as retaining the records of serious young offenders a little longer and encouraging rehabilitation and treatment of young offenders in the community when appropriate.

Some members of the Chamber will have us believe that these measures are not tough enough. We heard the debate this afternoon. They are seeking harsher penalties for each category of the Young Offenders Act. Some even advocate a hard line approach that would call upon applying the act to offenders as young as 10 years of age. They argue that the public will be better protected from the serious antisocial behaviour of some children if these children were included under the Young Offenders Act.

A federal-provincial committee studied the minimum age issue in 1990 and recommended keeping the age of 12 and strengthening provincial legislation where required. The act covers youth under the age of 18 and was set at 17 because many adult rights and responsibilities, for example voting, alcohol consumption, et cetera, begin at age 18.

However many criminologists have argued that the preventive and rehabilitative strategies available in the youth court system are in the long run more effective at reducing youth crime than strategies which rely mainly on the deterrent factor associated with the adult penal system. In the long run harsher jail sentences, tougher parole laws and bigger prisons will not make our communities any safer from violent youth crime. Quick measures will not provide a long term solution to the issue of young violent offenders.

What should be done and what will be done once the second phase of the government's plan goes into action is to change the conditions that create violence among young people. We must respond to the issue of violence among young people with well thought out strategies to change the root causes of such behaviour.

I know that over the next six to eight months the justice committee will be undertaking a thorough assessment of the Young Offenders Act. We must involve our young people in these discussions, as well as those in the community who are most affected by fear of crime.

We must not create a punitive repressive youth justice system that will target blacks, natives and the poor. The long term solution will call for co-ordination between the community, social services and the justice system to tackle the complex questions surrounding youth crime.

Violence against women and children, poverty, shortage of recreational facilities, lack of opportunities, dysfunctional families, racism are all underlying factors which lead to youth crime. We must all work together toward seeking alternatives.

Prevention of violence and crime will surely be our ultimate goal, not the punitive way in which some members of this House would have us go.

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6:15 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Bellehumeur Bloc Berthier—Montcalm, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have an easy question for the hon. member. In her speech, she talked about the transfer to adult court and she seemed to be in favour of the system proposed by the Minister of Justice in his amendments. Does the parliamentary secretary not realize that under the present system a young offender between the ages of 14 and 17 can be transferred to adult court? If the prosecution asks for the transfer to adult court of an accused between the ages of 14 and 17, the judge can order the transfer, in which case the regular system applies and the sentences are the ones set for adults.

If she is aware of that, why does she want to change a system which has been operating for 10 years? If it is because of a particular problem, I would like to know what it is and how we could solve it, apart from the proposed amendments.

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6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Augustine Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Mr. Speaker, the changes that are proposed and the changes that have occurred are as a result of the serious consultation which has taken place. We have also looked at the age at which the responsibility of sentencing could be placed on individuals as a result of the kind of crime committed. When the member says they could be transferred at age 14 directly into adult court, I am not sure whether he has missed the part in Bill C-37 which speaks to this consideration. The decision of moving from youth court to adult court is made by the judge.

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6:15 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Bellehumeur Bloc Berthier—Montcalm, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to tell the hon. member that I know that, according to the bill, a young offender between the ages of 14 and 16 can be transferred. The transfer system remains, but I wanted to draw the attention of the hon. member to the fact that the system exists in the present act, for young offenders between 14 and 17. I wanted to point that out to the hon. member.

In her answer the parliamentary secretary says that the decision to propose automatic referral to adult court for offenders aged 16 and 17 had been taken after serious consultation. I would like to know which groups asked for those changes or in which provinces they were most vocal?

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6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Augustine Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Mr. Speaker, at this point I cannot delineate for the member which provinces and which groups provided the specific input for the bill before us. It is important to note that we were attempting to deal with serious crimes, first and second offences, the ability of the judge to decide whether the crime is serious enough or the offence is serious enough to be moved.

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6:20 p.m.

Parkdale—High Park Ontario

Liberal

Jesse Flis LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to participate in this debate.

As a member of Parliament from metropolitan Toronto I can assure members that many people in my riding of Parkdale-High Park do not feel safe in their neighbourhoods any more. Seniors are afraid. Women live in fear. They are afraid to come out to town hall meetings in the evenings. Even some of the schoolyards appear to be dangerous places for the children. Parents complain that they are finding syringes in the sandboxes

and are afraid their children could get pricked with those and get AIDS, et cetera.

That is why I welcome tougher legislation to make the Young Offenders Act more effective. Acting on a promise from the Liberal election platform of October 26, 1993 the Liberal government is cracking down on serious youth crime and making the protection of society our first priority.

In the chapter entitled "Safe Homes and Safe Streets", the Liberals promised to double the maximum sentence from five years to 10 years for first degree murder. Bill C-37 makes good on our election promise and our commitment to Canadians.

Let us look at parole for young offenders convicted of murder. No longer will they be automatically eligible for parole after serving only five years of their sentence. This is a firm measure to ensure that the protection of society comes first.

Of course there are many critics of this legislation as we have heard in this debate already today. Some say the government has not gone far enough, that we should simply lock up the young people who commit serious crimes and throw away the key. If the solution were that simple, we would have legislated crime out of existence long ago.

Let us look at the United States, the country with the highest incarceration rate of all the developed nations, yet longer sentences and stricter penalties are not enough to prevent crimes. Canada follows the United States with the second highest incarceration rate. It is higher than Japan, higher than France, Italy, the United Kingdom and even Turkey, but still we have not eliminated crime.

It is quite clear that deterrence is not enough. Government recognizes that the justice system can only deal with young offenders after a crime has been committed, but once a young offender commits a crime, it is too late. The real solution lies in crime prevention.

In my own riding of Parkdale-High Park, residents in Parkdale have banded together to form the Parkdale focus community watch. This highly innovative group works closely with police and public authorities to have an impact on critical decisions which affect the community. They liaise with the liquor licensing board, the police, business associations, ratepayer groups, anyone who is interested in the community to network with this group.

Community watch will do things such as safety audits in the community. A subcommittee will do a safety audit. They might see that a telephone booth is in a dark area where the drug trade is going on. There might be a lot of prostitution in that corner, a lot of fights break out, et cetera. They report back to the full committee. A phone call goes to Bell and negotiations start. That phone booth is either removed or lighting is intensified. The city is co-operating; the lighting along Queen Street has been intensified again to help prevent crime.

Recently the Minister of Justice paid a visit to Parkdale and met with this community watch. Its members were very impressed with the way the minister is communicating and dialoguing with the local communities. They were impressed that the minister offered to come back to see how they were doing with this community model of crime prevention. This was a unique opportunity for concerned residents to have a voice and affect justice reform. The Parkdale focus community watch could easily serve as a model for other communities, a shining example that we all have a stake in crime prevention.

Crime prevention has to begin at home. As a former teacher, principal and co-ordinator working with disadvantaged children, I believe that is where we should place a lot of our resources: helping parents to give them parenting techniques so that children from day one are not led down the road to crime.

In the school system, I grew up in a school system and I administered schools with 1,500 students and schools with 300 students. We used corporal punishment. I had no discipline problems. The schools ran very well, but we resorted to corporal punishment. I doubt whether in 1994 we should have to resort to that kind of corporal punishment. I think we do have to make a school policy of zero crime tolerance, as many schools are doing today.

I congratulate the minister and I support the bill 100 per cent. However I am very concerned with what is happening in our Parliament. I received a letter just the other day which states: "Dear Mr. Flis: Every member of Parliament is being provided with a secret PIN number and asked to call 1-900-451-4020 to vote in referendum 94 on the Young Offenders Act. If the majority position in the referendum indicates a need to change the Young Offenders Act, Ted White will draft a private member's bill for introduction to Parliament". Then it states to call that same number but $1 will be charged for the first minute and 95 cents for each additional minute will be billed if you stay on the line after the beep. It states that you need your parents' consent to incur these charges if you are not over 18. I want to assure him I am over 18 and I do not need my parents' consent to call him.

I do not have time to quote further from the letter. However it shocks me that a member of the Reform Party who was elected freely in a democratic election would resort to the use of secret PIN numbers to give us direction on what should be in the Young Offenders Act. Who gave that member the right to give me a secret PIN number? It is not secret; I will give it to the public: 669746562211. That is my secret PIN number. You, Mr. Speaker, have a secret PIN number too and you are probably on the

1-900 number which is used for getting sex into the homes and all other advertising over the phone lines.

It shocks me. We are having a serious debate on the young offenders bill which most people have asked for and the government has brought in and the Reform Party resorts to this kind of trash. I hope the Reform Party will learn that we do not do things secretly. And you have to have a touch tone phone. What about all those Canadians who cannot afford that service? Are they denied the right to have input to their member of Parliament?

The Liberal Party is very open and transparent. When we want to put something into legislation, we put it in and debate it openly in this House.

I hope the Reform Party will not resort to those kinds of tactics. They have been used in many countries, but I hope they will not be used in Canada.