Evidence of meeting #2 for Bill C-39 in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Dominic LeBlanc  Minister responsible for Canada-U.S. Trade, Intergovernmental Affairs and One Canadian Economy
Steven MacKinnon  Minister of Transport
Feldberg  Vice-President, Regulatory Affairs, Major Projects Office
Vandergrift  Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
Julie Dabrusin  Minister of the Environment, Climate Change and Nature
Patty Hajdu  Minister of Jobs and Families and Minister responsible for the Federal Economic Development Agency for Northern Ontario
Hubbard  President, Impact Assessment Agency of Canada
Gooch  President and Chief Executive Officer, Association of Canadian Port Authorities
Bird  President and Chief Executive Officer, Montreal Port Authority
Legge  President, Business Council of Alberta
Baudry  Vice-President, Strategic Affairs and Communications, Montreal Port Authority

7:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Association of Canadian Port Authorities

Daniel-Robert Gooch

Good evening.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for the opportunity to appear today.

I’m Daniel‑Robert Gooch, president and CEO of the Association of Canadian Port Authorities, representing Canada's 17 federally regulated port authorities under Transport Canada.

Most of Canada's non-U.S. trade moves by sea. Our ports connect Canadian businesses to global markets and keep our supply chains resilient. In 2025, Canada's CPA ports handled 376 million tonnes of containerized and bulk cargo, valued at approximately $777 billion. Last year, on average, about $2.1 billion of cargo passed through Canada's port authorities each day.

As Canada looks to diversify trade, the majority of its exports will need to leave the country by sea, meaning Canadian ports will play a crucial role in helping the government achieve its diversification goals.

Canada's port authorities support the goal of Bill C-39 to modernize financial tools and provide CPAs with expanded flexibility to advance Canada's trade goals through efficient gateways that perform and produce prosperity for Canadians. We particularly welcome joint liability arrangements and special purpose entities, which will let ports partner and invest, including in inland terminals. We also welcome ministerial board appointments, which should make appointments faster and, hopefully, more predictable than the current GIC process that's in place today.

However, as with any modernization, the details will matter. How much Bill C-39 helps CPAs will depend on further work to clarify its scope, definitions and regulations. Getting these details right will be essential in setting CPAs up for success without imposing additional administrative burdens. Ports across Canada operate in very different regional contexts, and the proposed changes will affect each port differently, depending on its location, cargo mix and scale of operations.

There are four key areas.

The first is dispute resolution. The changes to dispute resolution are one of our members' most significant concerns. Since the Canada Marine Act came into place in the late 1990s, ports have operated as commercial entities, setting fees that reflect their operational and capital needs, without taxpayer funding. That's the goal. Bill C-39 expands the grounds for complaints to the Canadian Transportation Agency. Our biggest concern around this is nuisance complaints. Going to the agency is costly, even when a case never reaches a hearing. A weak complaint can still add legal costs and delay decisions on projects. For example, only parties that are actually affected by a fee increase should have standing.

The second is the national trade corridors council. The creation of this council in an advisory role could facilitate better decision-making and supply chain management. Our concern lies with the need to consult with the council on port business and land use plans. Under the proposed changes, CPAs will be mandated to consult on these key components of their business with a new organization whose mandate and membership are still unknown. Additionally, the bill does not provide insight into what ports are expected to do with the input they receive as part of this consultation process. CPAs are locally responsive businesses operating at arm's length of the government. Because of this, we ask that the council's mandate and authority and the meaning of consultation be clearly defined.

The third is financial flexibility. While Bill C-39 adds guardrails for borrowing, such as borrowing plans and regular reviews, it's important to note that the amendments in this bill on their own will not improve flexibility in borrowing. We have been working with Transport Canada toward a more flexible approach on borrowing, such as a formula embedded in letters patent instead of a hard number, but this will ultimately come down to a policy decision by the federal government that is still to be made. A more flexible borrowing framework is essential for CPAs to fully realize the benefits of many of the improvements envisioned in Bill C-39. Transport Canada's pending policy decision on using a formula-based approach to borrowing limits is, therefore, a crucial outstanding priority.

The fourth is board appointments and governance. We support the amendments to allow for ministerial appointments instead of GICs. Under Minister MacKinnon, appointments have moved more quickly, and we thank him for that, but legislation outlasts any one minister. The House transport committee addressed this with Bill C-33 a few years ago by adding language that would have given the federal government a deadline of 12 months to make its appointments. We'd like to see this language come back, as it would help ensure that board appointments stay on track well into the future under future ministers and future governments.

To close, Bill C-39 is a positive, important and needed step forward. Our goal is to ensure that the government gets the details right during implementation, guided by three principles. These are flexibility rather than one size fits all, avoiding administrative burdens that undermine commercial decision-making, and building on the good governance practices ports already have.

We look forward to continuing to work with the committee and the Government of Canada on the bill, its regulations and its implementation moving forward.

Thank you. I'm happy to answer your questions.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you very much.

We'll start our six-minute round with Mr. Albas.

7:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan Lake West—South Kelowna, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all our witnesses for being here.

I'm going to start with Mr. Legge of the Business Council of Alberta.

I appreciate the concern regarding ministerial condition-changing powers. I believe they need more disciplined safeguards. I'm going to refer to the Building Canada Act, because I know Pacific link is something that your council probably supports.

Essentially, clauses 100 and 101 of the bill expand the designated Building Canada Act minister's ability to add, remove or amend conditions, including conditions attached to certain authorizations granted before a project was added to schedule 1.

I call this the “He loves me, he loves me not” clause, because it depends on which day and which condition, as a minister can radically change a project. I think that's the one you were referring to in your comments.

Would you be more supportive of having some important safeguards around that, so that, essentially, once a project is scheduled, like Pacific link, it can't end up becoming something it wasn't originally intended to be just by fiat of the minister?

8 p.m.

President, Business Council of Alberta

Adam Legge

There should definitely be some guardrails around what the ministers can designate, perhaps like the introduction of a sunset clause of that or a renewal of that set of powers.

We have very high confidence in the ambitions of the Prime Minister to be building, but, as this legislation will outlast governments, the intention should be that the conditions are thoughtfully placed with respect to economic impacts, social impacts and environmental impacts.

In an ideal scenario, the minister would be designated with all of those thoughtful perspectives to accelerate a project, but there should be some constraints that have to be factored in to not materially change the nature of the project, not materially impact the timelines, not materially impact construction schedules and not materially impact the cost. All of those factors should be considered as potential criteria for any levelling of new conditions.

8 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan Lake West—South Kelowna, BC

We should be trying to build certainty and predictability into everything we do in this bill. I would hope that you agree with that.

8 p.m.

President, Business Council of Alberta

Adam Legge

I agree.

8 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan Lake West—South Kelowna, BC

One of the things you mentioned in your comments was the lack of some sort of discipline if the 12-month or 300-plus-65-day decision by cabinet were to go past that.

One thing I've seen in there is some grand inconsistencies between part one of the bill on major projects and part two when it comes to transportation. For example, when we're talking about projects on the transportation side, such as Deltaport berth four, the federal dashboard identifies five potential federal instruments involving Transport Canada, DFO and Environment Canada.

The office that Transport Canada is going to be putting together—at least they say they will be; it's optional—will be completely toothless. In essence, Conservatives are asking, “Why don't we have the same timelines for Transport Canada that you see on the Canada Energy Regulator or the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission?”

Second to that, shouldn't there be some responsibility for Transport Canada to bring in all of these different groups and maybe even put out an order to name and shame them when they take longer than the allotted time? What's your opinion on that?

8 p.m.

President, Business Council of Alberta

Adam Legge

Thank you for the question.

If I'm interpreting your question correctly, MP Albas, you're talking about the new proposed transportation project office.

8 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan Lake West—South Kelowna, BC

Yes. It's optional under the bill.

8 p.m.

President, Business Council of Alberta

Adam Legge

We would encourage the transportation project office to have the same requirements for reviews and timing that both the MPO and the Impact Assessment Agency would be held to.

8 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan Lake West—South Kelowna, BC

Okay. You're saying we should have consistency and make sure that a timeline is a timeline and that the government can't force private sector proponents to hang in the wind. Is that correct?

8 p.m.

President, Business Council of Alberta

Adam Legge

That's correct. We should have a consistent platform and expectations for timelines and process for all major projects across the federal system, regardless of the nature of the project.

8 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan Lake West—South Kelowna, BC

Thank you for your time.

8 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Mr. Kelloway, go ahead.

8 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Kelloway Liberal Sydney—Glace Bay, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for coming this evening. We really appreciate it.

My first question or two will be for Mr. Gooch.

In particular, I want to dig down deep in terms of how the measures in this legislation will help Canadian ports get Canadian goods to new markets, given the fact that we are under siege with respect to the unjustified American tariffs. We're looking at ways to double our non-U.S. exports. How would this legislation help in that respect?

8 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Association of Canadian Port Authorities

Daniel-Robert Gooch

Thank you for the question.

It's a very comprehensive piece of legislation. I didn't even get into the labour stability piece, which has been a huge part of Canada's international reputation. It's important that we be seen as a reliable trading partner if we are to achieve those diversification goals. That's not an area of the bill that we're involved in, but it's important that it be addressed. Moving projects forward more quickly is certainly something that should benefit ports that have extensive infrastructure investments under way.

In a lot of the other areas, really, details are much to be worked out—and that's okay. Pieces of legislation are not opened up all that often. Bill C-33 was only four years ago. Before that, the Canada Marine Act.... I believe it had been over 10 years before there was an attempt made to amend it.

We're optimistic that there's a renewed energy to get things moving in Canada and to get our exports diversified, with ambitious goals. This provides a framework that we'll be working with the government on, I imagine, for quite some time to come.

Mike Kelloway Liberal Sydney—Glace Bay, NS

I'm going to stick with you, Mr. Gooch, and thank you for that response.

The legislation allows for ports to invest and engage with projects on port land. I'm wondering, could you tell us how this will impact job creation and bettering the operations? Maybe we could focus on the jobs aspect, and then I'll move to the other witnesses.

8:05 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Association of Canadian Port Authorities

Daniel-Robert Gooch

I'm sorry, but is there an area in particular that you're asking about?

Mike Kelloway Liberal Sydney—Glace Bay, NS

In particular, no, but from your perspective...the trajectory of creating jobs. Can you speak to where jobs would be started, would emerge from this legislation, and where you would hope to see it in creating job development?

8:05 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Association of Canadian Port Authorities

Daniel-Robert Gooch

There are some areas in there that I think are very.... We really need to understand what the government envisions, but with the special purpose entities and the joint ventures, where we're looking for more flexibility for port authorities is in being able to engage in investments with port partners. When you look around the country, port authorities are landlords, and they work with private sector partners to make the investments needed where the jobs actually take place. When it's taking years for projects to move forward, when there are restrictions on the ability a port authority has in terms of capitalizing subsidiaries, or when there are limits on how they can enter into joint ventures and other subsidiaries, it means they're limited in the tools they have at their disposal to work with private partners and government to invest in areas where they could, perhaps, be investing if they were nimbler.

Mike Kelloway Liberal Sydney—Glace Bay, NS

Thank you very much for that, Mr. Gooch.

I'm going to move to Mr. Legge for a question or two, and then to the Montreal Port Authority. I think you did a really good job, Mr. Legge, of talking about the provisions of the bill connected to the objectives, which I appreciate. I won't get you to repeat what you said, but I really think it's important to know what we're measuring. What indicators should Parliament use to measure success, let's say, over the next five years or so?

8:05 p.m.

President, Business Council of Alberta

Adam Legge

Ultimately, the indicators are completed projects; dollars invested in Canadian infrastructure, both from the private sector and in leveraging off the public sector as well; job creation; and speed of approvals and timing: the number of times project approvals have been done and completed within the allotted time frame or the number of times they have been outside the time frame as set by the legislation, the number of times project applications and reviews have been paused or the clock has stopped, etc. These are a host of more big-picture and tactical criteria, I'd say, that would be success measures.

Mike Kelloway Liberal Sydney—Glace Bay, NS

Thank you.

I think I have about a minute left, or maybe two, so I'll pivot to the Montreal Port Authority. Many countries around the world do paperless trade, but Canada doesn't do paperless trade. I'm wondering, for the benefit of my colleagues and those who are watching at this late hour, depending on where you are, how does the current system operate? What challenges does this pose to ports like yours and businesses that are associated with your port?

Julien Baudry Vice-President, Strategic Affairs and Communications, Montreal Port Authority

Thank you for your question.

Right now, the lack of paperless data governance makes it very hard to optimize a number of port activities, particularly when it comes to customs. If we want to be able to optimize assets, we need access to much more digital tracking.

As it stands, Canada has been lagging behind for many years. This also means that a number of innovations found elsewhere in the world are not being implemented in Canada. Some shipping companies, among others, provide complete visibility for tracking goods. That's harder to apply right now in Canada, particularly in the context of interoperability.

Mike Kelloway Liberal Sydney—Glace Bay, NS

Thank you.