Canada-China Relations Committee on March 22nd, 2021

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I do remember that when Mr. Regan turned it over to Mr. Genuis he said five minutes. I believe he's gone well over five minutes at this point.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes, that's because it's been you talking the whole time.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

That is not the case at all.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Stéphane Bergeron]

Madam Clerk, could you shed some light on this issue?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Marie-France Lafleur]

If the clock was indeed stopped earlier, Mr. Genuis has about two minutes left.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Stéphane Bergeron]

Mr. Genuis, you may continue.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and Madam Clerk.

My question was specific to the transfer to institutions and gain-of-function experiments. Does the Wuhan Institute of Virology engage in gain-of-function experiments related to coronaviruses?

[Dr. Guillaume Poliquin]

Mr. Chair, I apologize. I'm not able to answer that particular question.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

If viruses were to be transferred to the Wuhan Institute of Virology, would you, as the head of the lab, be responsible for approving those transfers?

[Dr. Guillaume Poliquin]

[Technical difficulty—Editor] must be approved by senior management at the National Microbiology Laboratory.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You are responsible for approving them—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Genuis and colleagues, I'm happy to say that I'm back. I'm sorry for my absence, but my computer shut down on me.

I would just like to ask the clerk how long Mr. Genuis has had. If he's had five minutes, he has a minute left.

[The Clerk]

I can confirm that he has about a minute left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Genuis, please carry on.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Poliquin, you're responsible for approving transfers, but you are unaware whether the Wuhan Institute for Virology engages in gain-of-function experiments related to coronaviruses.

How would you make determinations about the appropriateness of transfers to that institution, if you are unaware of such an important aspect of how transferred materials might be used?

[Dr. Guillaume Poliquin]

Mr. Chair, every transfer of material is assessed on a case-by-case basis. We have never transferred coronaviruses to the Wuhan Institute of Virology; therefore, we have not assessed the question as structured.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Have you assessed whether they conduct gain-of-function experiments related to the viruses that were transferred?

[Dr. Guillaume Poliquin]

Mr. Chair, prior to the transfer, one of the essential aspects of the transfer process is receiving a letter from the receiving institute with respect to their intent.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Are you satisfied with the security protocols at the Wuhan Institute of Virology?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Genuis, we'll have to wait for that answer. Your time has concluded.

We're now on to Mr. Fragiskatos for five minutes.

Mr. Fragiskatos, go ahead, please.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You may be aware of this already, but you missed some theatrics while you were gone.

Just to let colleagues know—in particular Mr. Genuis—when I raised points of order, they were not to prevent certain questions from being asked. Members have that privilege; they are members of Parliament. My points of order related, as I said, to parliamentary decorum, allowing a witness to finish an answer and not badgering that witness.

It's good to ask hard questions. There's nothing wrong with it. There is, however.... It's not even a fine line. There is a difference between asking a question in a meaningful way and making a mockery of a parliamentary committee, which I'm afraid my friend Mr. Genuis has done yet again.

But I'll leave that aside, Mr. Chair. My question is for Mr. Stewart.

Mr. Stewart, MPs here have asked difficult questions about an ongoing investigation, and they have accused you of being evasive. Is it fair to say that you can't answer the question because there is an ongoing investigation?

[Iain Stewart]

There are three aspects. There's privacy with respect to individuals. There is security with respect to the nature of the investigation. Third, I can't speak on behalf of the RCMP in their investigations.

Those are the reasons why I've been unable to answer the questions as posed, sir. I'm sorry it's causing stress and unhappiness. It's just the legal advice I was provided in preparation for this session.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to ask you a question about the Global Public Health Intelligence Network, a widely respected tool. In fact, as we know, it is used in a very significant way by the World Health Organization when it comes to the monitoring of pandemic data and threats to international public health more generally, beyond pandemics. You know this much better than I do; I'm just saying it for context.

There was an audit carried out recently, and this matter has come up here tonight, but I want to ask you specifically about it and get your response. I'm quoting here from a Canadian Press report that itself quotes the audit, so I'll put it on record.

It says:

The interim report concluded that the news monitoring system did identify the outbreak of the pneumonia that would [become] COVID-19 on the night of Dec. 30, 2019—

This is the point you referred to earlier, Mr. Stewart. It continues:

—and included this information from Wuhan, China, in a special report to Canadian public health officials the next day.

But the report noted that without [sending up] a formal alert, international partners relying on Canada's information were left to rely on other sources.

I'll also quote here, as the piece does, directly from the audit:

“That [the system] identified early open-source signals of what would become COVID-19 and promptly alerted senior management does not mean that the system is operating as smoothly or as clearly as it could and should,” the report concluded.

I just want to put that question to you to get your response as the president of the Public Health Agency of Canada. I think it's a relevant question, because this is something that Canadians are asking right now, and I think it deserves an answer.

[Iain Stewart]

Through the chair, thank you.

I would like to agree with you. It is a valued asset. GPHIN is important, and it needs to play an important role. The Public Health Agency made changes that I think diminished the value of the asset and its ability to help the health community prepare.

In my opening remarks, what I was trying to underline and note was that it actually did do its job and it did result in internal action. However, your question is underlining that it did not do the external, international role it used to play, through not transmitting an alert. We see value in those alerts, and we have corrected and restored that function.

Going forward, in terms of the report you're referring to, which is an arm's-length review that Minister Hajdu requested, there will be consideration of how we can do a better job in identifying developments of concern and responding more quickly, and to be frank, I look forward to that advice.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Stewart, I have a few seconds, but if at some point you can't conclude the answer here because of limited time.... In terms of actions taken by PHAC to combat misinformation relating to the pandemic, the conspiracy theories that continue to circulate, I would love to hear more about what PHAC is doing on that front.