Canada-China Relations Committee on Nov. 24th, 2020

[John McCallum]

I was invited to lunch once—a long time ago, before the pandemic—with the current Chinese ambassador. I had lunch with him.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

What was the nature of the meeting?

[John McCallum]

I had known him in China when I was ambassador. It was just a social occasion, I suppose. I had lunch with him. That's all. It was dinner, sorry.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Do you agree that a foreign agents registry is needed for Canada? It has been proposed by former Canadian ambassador to China, David Mulroney, and endorsed by another former ambassador, Guy Saint-Jacques.

[John McCallum]

I would certainly, obviously, comply, if there was such a thing. Right now I cannot divulge names of clients, but we would find a way to do that if that was the law. It wouldn't really bother me if the government wished to do that. It's not a decision for me. It's a decision for the government.

If you're asking me for my opinion, right now the advice I give to Chinese companies, if they're seeking to invest in Canada and create jobs in Canada, is that they're already subject to all the restrictions of the Investment Canada Act, and also all the laws of Canada and of provinces and cities and their regulations.

If the government wants to do that, that's the government's business, and I would comply. I'm just not sure it gives additional information that would be useful to the government. I might be wrong, but that's my initial impression.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

You have 20 seconds.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

In your time as a member, you received $73,000 in paid travel or gifts from the Chinese Communist Party or groups affiliated with them. Did gifts of this nature continue during your time as ambassador, sir?

[John McCallum]

The only government of China I have ever received money from was the government of Taiwan, when I went on a trip there with my wife many years ago. I have not received a penny from the government of mainland China as ambassador, as MP or as post-ambassador.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

[John McCallum]

The money for those trips came from the Government of Canada or NGOs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Mr. McCallum and Mr. Barrett.

We will now go to Mr. Fragiskatos for five minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to both witnesses for appearing tonight.

Mr. McCallum, it is great to see you again. I certainly have questions for you relating to the topic, but I simply want to thank you again for the work that you did, specifically on Syrian refugee resettlement and Yazidi refugee resettlement. Both communities are thriving in London, due, in large part, to efforts from people such as you and those around you.

You mentioned in your opening statement that there were achievements, and I think important achievements, relating to your time as ambassador. Could you highlight a few of those again?

[John McCallum]

As I said, I had this double mandate: on the one hand, to pursue greater economic ties, and on the other hand, to stand up for human rights and our values. I spoke mainly about the latter, because I think that's what many members of the committee are more interested in.

I don't want to discuss these things for the future, but I'm happy to discuss them in terms of when I was ambassador. We did play a leading role in leading the charge among like-minded western ambassadors on the Uighur issue. I was pleased that we did that. We did not have nearly as much information back then as we have now, but we were certainly leading the efforts to get those 28 ambassadors to sign this letter. I remember I tried to expand that outside of the usual group of countries to Muslim-led countries, and I didn't succeed in the end, but I got some interest.

That was a pretty major effort on our part, when I was ambassador, along with those other items that I mentioned.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

The question of the Uighurs and what is being perpetrated is a matter that has concerned this committee and other committees in Parliament, as you well know. Are you saying that Canada led the effort, during your time as ambassador, to raise the issue on the global stage, or helped to lead the effort?

[John McCallum]

It's hard to define whether we were the one country most leading the effort. We were clearly right up there, and we did lead the effort on the letter to the party secretary of Xinjiang province that was signed by the 28 ambassadors. We definitely led that, and I would say we were very active in general.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I appreciate that.

I want to turn to Mr. Wright.

Mr. Wright, thank you for your previous service, of course.

I want to ask you a question that relates to how liberal democracies can best coalesce to counter the influence of a China that certainly has changed in recent years under its new leadership.

The point has been made at this committee—I think it is one that deserves serious consideration, and I'm glad that the government seems to be basing its foreign policy approach to China on it—that liberal democracies should come together around common and shared values to engage and confront China, if I can put it that way. That is an argument that has been made, as I said, by previous witnesses and by the foreign affairs minister last night.

My question for you is this: What do you think of that perspective? Second, if you are in favour of that, will it have an impact? Does China care? That is my question.

[Robert Wright]

Yes, I strongly support working with other liberal democracies, with other western countries, to talk about how we should engage with China and how we might influence the directions that China takes.

I still believe there are prospects that China will adjust as it becomes more involved globally. We can take certain [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Wright, I'm afraid you are frozen.

You were just saying, “I think we can take certain....” Please go ahead.

[Robert Wright]

Can I continue?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Yes, please.

[Robert Wright]

I just mentioned the fact that the Trans-Pacific Partnership that we joined a couple of years ago is a good initiative. That means we'll be working with other countries in the region to promote trade and investment.

I know from experience, from when I was in China—and I'm sure it was the same when John was there—that we worked closely with ambassadors from other countries to talk about developments in China and how we might co-operate to try to advance common ideas.

I remain, if not optimistic, realistic about the prospect of changing things in the short term, but it is a pursuit well worth pursuing. As I was saying a little bit earlier, the fact that the U.S. government, the president-elect and his team have already indicated that they want to work more closely with partners on global issues, including relationships with China, is a very positive sign.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Mr. Bergeron, it is your turn. You have two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. McCallum, for the comments you were making in response to my last question.

It's very important, in my view, and I understand why it is so crucial for us to have local employees working for us all over the world, regardless of the country. They are locally connected and understand the circumstances in their own country.

Given the security concerns that have been so widely reported in recent days and weeks, I am worried when it comes to the People's Republic of China, in particular. Although I am not questioning the importance of those employees, I would like to know what steps were taken, during your time as ambassador, to ensure the integrity of staff engaged locally to work in Canadian missions on Chinese soil.

[John McCallum]

Thank you for your question. I didn't have enough time to finish answering it earlier.

As I said, those people are essential, in my view. Three-quarters of our staff are people from the region. They have much-needed knowledge, but there are security concerns. You're right. For that reason, those staff members are not permitted to access certain information or certain computers. The rules are very strict when it comes to that. It is possible that, more recently—since I left my post—the awareness level around those security concerns has increased and the rules have become stricter. I am not sure. I would say Canadian officials are cognizant of the security challenge and take steps accordingly. Regardless, Canada can't carry out its activities abroad without the support of local staff.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Would you care to add anything, Mr. Wright?