Canada-China Relations Committee on Nov. 24th, 2020

[John McCallum]

It's a pleasure to see you as well, Mr. Bergeron.

I don't know what the government's new policy is. As Minister Champagne stated, our policy towards China is evolving. When I was the ambassador, the situation wasn't what it is today. That speaks to the need for an evolving policy. The arrest and detention of the two Michaels is a serious issue for Canada. I think the government has good reason for wanting a change in policy. I also think Mr. Biden's election could make a difference.

As a retired ambassador, I don't really want to be doling out advice to the government, but given the evolving nature of the situation, it's natural to think we may need to do certain things differently as far as our China policy goes. I agree with my colleague that, going forward, Canada will need to do the two things it has always done: pursue its economic interests, while upholding its values and human rights.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. McCallum.

What do you think, Mr. Wright?

[Robert Wright]

Thank you.

I'm not sure what premise Howard may have made, but I certainly see the need these days for the government to reassess the approach to China. I think it's timely. I look forward to seeing what they have to say.

As I say, things have changed dramatically from the time I was there, when we had easier access and a more cordial exchange with the Chinese. I can say in all honesty that the Chinese listened carefully to what we had to say. They may not have agreed with us, but they did listen carefully to what we had to say.

My impression now is that it's much more difficult than it was then. I wish the government well and I look forward to hearing what their recommendations are for the future.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

We know that more than 600 people work for Canada in the People's Republic of China, or at least in the greater China region. Of those 600 or 650 people, nearly 500 are locally engaged staff, as they are called.

The People's Republic of China's seeks to exert influence, even internationally, over other states' dealings with it. Do you not feel there is a risk that the current regime will try to influence residents, Chinese citizens in China, who work for foreign governments?

In other words, what safeguards are in place to ensure the integrity of the people working for Canada in the People's Republic of China or the greater China region?

[John McCallum]

Are you referring to embassy staff?

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I am referring to the embassy, consulates and the like. I am actually referring broadly to all the employees who work for Canada, 500 of whom are locals, Chinese people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Be very brief, please.

[John McCallum]

All right. I see.

I always say local staff are vital to our mission in China. They have the expertise we need. We must be careful, yes, but they are essential to the embassy's operations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, gentlemen.

Mr. Harris, you have six minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank you both, former ambassadors.

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I'm getting an echo in my ear.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'll just stop the time for a minute to see if we can fix that with the technicians.

Do you have it on the right channel?

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I'm on English. I was getting a delayed repeat of my voice, but it seems to have disappeared at the moment.

May I start the time again?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Please go ahead.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I want to thank former Ambassador Wright and the former ambassador and former colleague of mine in the House of Commons, Mr. McCallum, for joining us tonight. I think we overlapped from 2008 to 2015, most of which time I was the defence critic for the NDP. We had many conversations.

Mr. Wright, may I start by asking you about your time? I think it's important to try to understand a little bit about what the relationship was and what the expectations might have been about China and China's future at that time. I'm guessing—maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Wright—that since you had been a deputy minister of international trade, you would have been appointed to this role partly due to your ability to deal with trade matters and presumably with Canadian investment issues in China, which I gather were fairly robust at the time.

The issues in Hong Kong we've heard a lot about over the last couple of years. Hong Kong was partway through the early stages after the handover. Could you describe the sense of what Hong Kong was doing and what the expectations were for China?

[Robert Wright]

There certainly were great expectations for the future of Canada-China trade and advancement—that's correct—and that was an important part of our portfolio. The portfolio of any ambassador is much broader than the economic interests, of course, and we pursued actively human rights questions, as well as questions related to educational exchanges, scientific exchanges and what have you. It was a broad agenda, but trade and investment were an important part of it.

At that point in time—this was from 2005 to 2009—there was a great sense of optimism, both here in Canada and in China, I would say, that the prospects for trade and investment between our two countries were very strong. The Harper government was not terribly well disposed to China initially. It took some time for them to develop the confidence that this was a relationship worth investing in, but after the visit by a range of ministers in the Harper government, there became a growing recognition of the fact that the relationship could grow, and that, indeed, in the growth of the relationship, we could have some influence on the direction that China would take.

With reference to Hong Kong, Hong Kong was then a very strong economy, one where, of course, there were up to 300,000 Canadians. It was easy for Canadian business people to do business there and to establish business relationships with Hong Kong and, through Hong Kong, with the mainland. I don't know now whether that situation is still the case.

I'm discouraged and I'm disappointed, of course, at developments over recent years, in particular with the implementation of the security law. Some of the confidence of the business community in Hong Kong has disappeared, and of course there is now a recognition of the fact that the opportunities for business people to work more closely with Hong Kong in the future may have been affected.

I still remain optimistic with Hong Kong, simply because the people of Hong Kong are great entrepreneurs. They're globalists and they're interested in doing business in all parts of the world. My hope would be that the mainland, China, would live up to its obligations under the transition agreement and allow them to continue as an important part of the Chinese economy, but also an important part of the global economy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Harris, we're not hearing you. I'm just going to hold for a moment. You weren't muted, but we just couldn't hear you.

Would you please keep talking? We'll see if we start hearing you again.

Mr. Harris, can you hear me? No, you're muted now. A moment ago you weren't, but we stopped hearing you.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I'm afraid I've done even worse—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Now it's going, so I'll get your time going again and you can carry on, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Okay. Thank you.

Am I right in saying that the events of the last several years, including the democracy activities, the pro-democracy demonstrations going on for some years...? Was any of this foretold during your period as ambassador in China, or is that something that was all after you left?

[Robert Wright]

It was all after I left.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Things were going well at that time, so things have changed. I guess one of the other premises, or false premises.... I'll get to Mr. McCallum in the next round. Howard Balloch talks about “the premise that the policy of broad and fulsome engagement has failed and that it was principally and naively aimed at changing China internally”. He calls that a “fallacious premise”. What do you think of that? Is it over, this idea that China will change because of engagement?

[Robert Wright]

I don't know. I would like to think not. I believed throughout my career that engagement is better than the alternative, so I still believe there's room for Canada to influence the direction China takes. I think we must stay fully engaged in that country and in Hong Kong to try to influence the directions they take.

Clearly, it has become more difficult over the last five or six years, ever since 2013, when Xi Jinping became president of China. There has been a shift, in my view, in the willingness of China to listen to input from other countries around the world. I regret this, because for the period that I was there, as I said, China was more open to ideas from Canada and from other countries.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

This may require a shift by us.

[Robert Wright]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Harris.

Thank you, Mr. Wright.

We're in the second round now, and we'll go to Mr. Barrett, for five minutes.

Welcome.