Canada-China Relations Committee on Nov. 24th, 2020

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

—a circus.

[Robert Wright]

—public issues that made them, in some cases, more difficult to manage.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much. I really appreciate that response.

Mr. McCallum, in May 2017 you appeared before the House of Commons Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development and you reiterated at that time that Canadian officials “work very hard on any cases involving the death penalty”. You said that there were five death penalty cases pending at that time and that Canadian officials were “working very hard to persuade the Chinese authorities, as we would work hard to persuade any government authorities...not to exercise the death penalty on Canadian citizens”.

What types of cases have typically led Canadians to be charged with the death penalty in China? Have Canadian officials been able to secure clemency for Canadians charged with the death penalty in China and, if so, under what circumstances?

[John McCallum]

The Canadian government—and I can only speak for the current government, the Liberal government—has been extremely forceful in opposing the death penalty and I, as ambassador, as well. I personally can't stand the death penalty, and the government agrees, so it is an extremely high priority, whatever the country, including the United States, to prevent death penalties from happening.

I agree with what Rob said, that headlines in newspapers don't necessarily help, but constant conversations and pressure, I think, do.

The Schellenberg case was particularly egregious. I hope the death penalty won't be carried out, obviously, but he was initially sentenced to a prison term, and then on appeal he got sentenced to death, and he had been told that couldn't happen. It's a very difficult case.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much. I really appreciate that.

I think my time is up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Ms. Zann.

Now, we move on to Mr. Bergeron for six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before I ask my question, I would like to revisit what you said a moment ago, Mr. Wright, about the ineffectiveness of talking tough and shouting publicly at the Chinese. I was a bit surprised to hear you say that because most of the witnesses the committee has heard from so far have told us the exact opposite—including some former ambassadors.

They maintain that, while it may have been effective up to this point to take a syrupy sweet approach with the Chinese government and to try to appease Beijing, that was no longer the way to go once Xi Jinping came to power. They said that, on the contrary, in order to really have some sway over the Chinese government, Canada needs to adopt the same tone as the Chinese and use strong, clear language that may not be entirely diplomatic.

You seem to be saying the exact opposite, Mr. Wright, so I'd like you to elaborate.

[Robert Wright]

It's not so much ineffectiveness. My real comment was that over the period I was there—and I have to remind you that this was from 2005 to 2009—it was a different government in China. My experience over that period in time was that headlines didn't resolve issues. Ongoing, consistent and principled diplomatic contact and discussions did resolve issues.

I can't speak for today's environment. I know that the situation has changed dramatically. I know there's a lot of frustration with actions China has taken in recent years, with good reason, and I can understand why people would be saying now that the kind of diplomacy we practised over the period I was there hasn't proven to be effective, particularly in dealing with these newer or other consular cases. I was really just speaking about my own experience.

It's certainly not syrupy-sweet diplomacy. Anybody who has been engaged in bilateral discussions with the Chinese knows that there's nothing syrupy-sweet about it. We went in with tough positions. We explained our positions honestly and frankly to the Chinese, and they gave us frank responses. I found that approach most effective over the period we were there when I was appointed as ambassador in China.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Wright.

Mr. McCallum, would you care to add anything?

[John McCallum]

I agree with what Robert Wright said. While it doesn't change the fact that I agree with his comments, I would point to something other people have suggested—instead of going it alone, Canada should work with countries like the United States to perhaps get better outcomes. I think that's a good idea.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

When you were the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship, Mr. McCallum, the Chinese government introduced a so-called talent recruitment program and set up a number of recruitment agencies in Canada.

Why did you, as the minister, authorize those agencies on Canadian soil?

[John McCallum]

I was not aware of that. I'm not sure I understood your question. Are you saying the Chinese government had agencies in Canada to recruit Canadians to go to China?

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

That is, indeed, our understanding.

I have a follow-up question. What would you say is the Chinese government's aim in recruiting people on Canadian soil?

[John McCallum]

I don't know. Usually, it's the opposite. We are the ones recruiting people in China.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I see.

[John McCallum]

My apologies. I don't have any information on that.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

No, I understand. You can't provide an answer. These things happen.

When the Minister of Foreign Affairs was here yesterday, we talked about the fact that a Chinese company is interested in purchasing a gold mine in northern Nunavut. The Chinese's interest in purchasing the mine seems to be both geostrategically and commercially motivated.

When you were ambassador, did you get the sense that the Chinese were interested in Canada's north?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Please keep your answer brief.

[John McCallum]

I'm being told that I don't have any time left, but I do not recall that, no.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

Now we will go to Mr. Harris, for six minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. McCallum, you were talking about visas a few minutes ago with some of my colleagues on the committee. Are we talking about all categories of visas, or are we looking at diplomatic visas for people seeking to work with the Chinese mission in Canada? Are we talking about all visas that might come your way or just those for agents of the government? I'd like to have clarification on that.

[John McCallum]

We're talking about official visas, and I think that's a pretty broad category. These are for people working not just for the government directly but also possibly for various agencies of the government. There would be large numbers of such visas. Everything is large in China, but we had large numbers of them and we, as I said, turned down a certain proportion.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Was there a general awareness, in your time as ambassador, beginning in 2017, of the extensive attempts by the Chinese to have foreign influence in Canada? Was that part of your briefing when you took on the job?

[John McCallum]

We certainly knew that was an issue, and I remember speaking to heads of various universities in Canada and asking them if they thought it was a big problem. As I recall, most of them, at the time, did not think it was a huge problem. They were aware of it. They thought it was potentially a problem, but I don't think it had become a great concern at that time. That may have changed now, but back when I was ambassador, we certainly were aware of it. We took certain actions on visas, as I've described. I, as ambassador, spoke to university heads and others, asking them the extent to which this seemed to be an issue where they worked, and I got mixed answers. I always got the impression that it was nowhere near as serious in Canada as it was, allegedly, in Australia.

Australia is a bit of a stalking horse for Canada, in the sense that, largely because we have the United States as our neighbour, China is much more important to Australia than it is to Canada, and so Australia is usually several years ahead of us in many ways, including in things like free trade agreements and other actions. Therefore, often what happens to Australia today is a guide for what might happen to Canada down the road, but I remember that it was more serious for Australia at the time than it was for Canada.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. McCallum, while you were in China, were you familiar with something called Operation Fox Hunt, which involved Chinese security officials and the RCMP within Canada?