Canada-China Relations Committee on Nov. 24th, 2020

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is my turn to welcome you, Mr. Wright and Mr. McCallum. Thank you for your many years of public service. Your input is very informative.

My first question is for Mr. McCallum.

You said that, while you were ambassador, you helped get Li Wenzu's husband released. You even revoked the visas of some Chinese officials.

Is it common for an ambassador to do things like that?

[John McCallum]

When Chinese officials apply for a visa to visit Canada, our security officers review the applications because they are aware of the issues we've talked about.

As ambassador, I had a role to play as well. A number of cases come to mind. When we thought, but didn't know for sure, that people might do unacceptable or inappropriate things in Canada, we would refuse to issue them a visa. That happens depending on the relationship between the two countries in question.

It wouldn't surprise me if Canada's officials were stricter in 2020 than when I was ambassador given how much the relationship with China has deteriorated. Nevertheless, those are things that have always been done.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you.

My next question is for Mr. Wright.

I know it's been a while since you were ambassador, but you do pay close attention to the news.

What was your reaction when China imposed the security law and, then, when the elected officials resigned? What did you think? What was your reaction?

[Robert Wright]

I was disappointed, of course, though I can't say I was shocked, because if you follow China, you could see increasingly over recent years that the Chinese government was becoming more and more worried about democratic developments in Hong Kong, so I can't say I was shocked, but I was very disappointed because Hong Kong has always provided a very nice transition between the autocratic, non-democratic People's Republic of China and the rest of the world. It served a useful role, I thought, to China as well as to the rest of the world in playing that role. I was very disappointed to see that the efforts of the people of Hong Kong to express themselves through democratic means were dealt with the way they were by China.

You could see over recent years, ever since 2013, well after I left, that the Chinese government had become more assertive in its efforts to crack down on any form of dissent. I think this is an unfortunate result of it. I'm sorry for the people of Hong Kong, and I am particularly sorry for the 300,000 Canadians who live there and who have very close ties with China as well as with Canada.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you so much, both of you. I think I have no more time left and—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

You have 30 seconds.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

That's fine.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you.

We will now go on. We have the last half-hour, so we will treat this part of it as though we were starting a new hour and we will go to Mr. Genuis for six minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, I really want to drill down with Mr. McCallum on this issue of visa applications that were rejected, because we seem to be dancing around the reasons why this might have happened, with references to activities that weren't appropriate or that weren't in the national interests. Who were these people whose applications you felt it was necessary to reject? Were they affiliated with the Chinese military or the United Front? What kinds of titles did they have? What kinds of purposes were they pursuing in Canada that led you to believe that our security or our interests would have been threatened if these visas were granted?

[John McCallum]

I think there were probably two categories, and as I said, we were not always absolutely certain about this. There was a fog of uncertainty, and we also had information from security agencies who had views as well. One thing we certainly would not approve of at all is if there were individuals coming on behalf of Chinese security agencies to pressure family members to return to China or threatening their families, things of that nature. I know there had been cases of that and that was one thing we would strongly oppose.

A second area, as you indicated, would be people who wanted to try to exert inappropriate influence on the Chinese diaspora. Again, we didn't always know for sure what everybody was up to, but when the weight of suspicion was sufficient, we would deny a visa. I can't say what the proportion was, but I remember it being a pretty substantial number.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Ambassador.

I think this is important in revealing that, back in the time when you were ambassador, you were aware of efforts to influence and even threaten the security of the Chinese diaspora in Canada, and visas were being denied on that basis.

Were you ever aware of cases where the government revoked existing visas or pulled the credentials of diplomats out of concern for the same kind of activity?

[John McCallum]

I can't think of any. I know there was a case where the Chinese wanted to have some sort of security agent in Vancouver, and we had suspicions—or it was more that the RCMP had suspicions. That was denied. They offered him a position in Ottawa, but they weren't interested. That actually provoked quite a long-lasting disagreement, or bad relations, between the RCMP and the Chinese counterparts.

I think the Canadian government agencies were onto this sort of thing at the time. I'm not saying it was rampant, but it certainly happened, and whenever we were thinking that it might happen, we tried to stop it.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Ambassador, were there ever cases where the RCMP raised concerns, but a visa was granted anyway?

[John McCallum]

Was that for me?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes, it's for you, Mr. McCallum.

[John McCallum]

I honestly don't remember. I think there were certain cases where CSIS or the RCMP would simply say no, and we wouldn't have a choice. There might have been others where there was a recommendation, and on occasion we might have disagreed with them. I don't remember.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. McCallum, if there are any records with respect to this that can be given to the committee or that Global Affairs can share with the committee, I think we'd very much like to see them.

I'll give the rest of my time to Mr. Paul-Hus.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Genius.

Mr. McCallum, when the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Champagne, appeared before the committee yesterday, he made it very clear that the China of 2020 was not the China of 2018, 2015 or prior. You are telling us the same thing today.

China is thousands of years old. For just over half a century, Canada has been trying to do business with China, but I would say it has always been tinged with hypocrisy. Now, the retaliatory arrest of the two Michaels has opened our eyes. The Minister of Foreign Affairs, himself, said that we have to look at China with eyes wide open.

This is my question. How can Canada continue to do business with China and carry on the same relationship as before, when it is now obvious to everyone that the Chinese Communist Party cannot be trusted in any interaction?

Finally, what is your best advice given the circumstances?

[John McCallum]

I think the government is trying to find an appropriate solution. It is true that these are challenging times. Finding the right answer isn't easy, but the government is doing its best.

I am no longer in the government, but I know it's doing its best.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Do you think there is anything the current government can do?

Conversely, do you think we can trust the Chinese communist regime now that we know everything that's going on?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Please be very brief.

[John McCallum]

You have to put it in perspective. Yes, we want to have a relationship with the Chinese government, and Canada cannot control who the government is. While it isn't easy, it is what it is, so we have to accept it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

Now we'll go to Ms. Zann for six minutes, please.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Mr. Wright, and my next question will be for Mr. McCallum.

In January 2019, a number of academics and retired diplomats—including former ambassadors such as yourself, Mr. Wright—signed a letter that expressed deep concern about the detentions of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. In that you wrote:

We who share Mr. Kovrig's and Mr. Spavor's enthusiasm for building genuine, productive and lasting relationships must now be more cautious about travelling and working in China and engaging our Chinese counterparts.

The two Michaels, as we call them, have been detained now since December 2018, as you know. On February 4 of this year, Global Affairs Canada informed this special committee that there are actually 123 Canadians detained in Greater China, which includes Hong Kong and Taiwan.

What are the conditions under which Canadians are generally held when detained in China, and what is the most effective approach to advocating for the release of detained Canadians in China? For instance, what approaches adopted by other countries have been most effective?

[Robert Wright]

Those are tough questions.

To the first part, I think the way in which they are maintained, the conditions in which they're maintained are very difficult, and there is no question about that. We are given consular access to most Canadians who are detained in China, and we report back, but those conditions are tough. To the extent that we can influence the Government of China on their form of detention, we do so.

What's the best means to try to deal with this? My own view is that little is achieved by shouting publicly, loudly, at the Chinese on these issues. My own experience over the period I was in China was that the headlines on the front pages of newspapers about Chinese actions and about the fact that Canadians were detained in Chinese prisons didn't help resolve the issue. What helped was deliberate, ongoing, diplomatic contact with Chinese officials, working with them to ensure that Canadian citizens were treated fairly, that we had access to them, and that they were given a fair hearing under Chinese law to the extent possible.

Whenever we increased the public pressure on certain high-profile cases, I found that the management of the relationship with China became more difficult, not less difficult. Therefore, I've always advocated that we need to maintain a strong diplomatic presence there and a deliberate context, but to the extent possible, not turn these into—