Canada-China Relations Committee on Nov. 24th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I call this meeting to order.

Good evening, colleagues, witnesses, guests, and subs sitting in—Mr. Barrett.

Welcome to meeting number eight of the Special Committee on Canada-China Relations. Pursuant to the motion adopted on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, the committee is meeting on its study of Canada-China relations.

Today's meeting is taking place in hybrid mode. It is also being televised and will be available on the House of Commons website.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I'd like to outline a few rules to follow.

Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are participating by video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. When members are asking you questions, however, you don't need to wait for me to recognize you during that period. At the end of their time, I'll have to cut off whoever is speaking, as you'll see.

A reminder that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. Please speak slowly and clearly.

When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute, please.

I'd now like to welcome two former ambassadors of Canada to the People's Republic of China: the Honourable John McCallum and Mr. Robert G. Wright. Thank you for being here.

Mr. Wright, I'll go to you first for a two-minute statement, please, and then I'll go to Mr. McCallum.

Please proceed.

[Robert Wright, Former Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, As an Individual]

Thank you for inviting me to participate tonight. I'm happy to be here.

My name is Rob Wright. I was a career public servant for more than 38 years. I served in China as ambassador from 2005 to 2009. Before that, I served as ambassador to Japan from 2001 to 2005, and before that I was deputy minister of international trade for six years, from 1995 to 2001.

My time in China was mostly when Stephen Harper was prime minister. Hu Jintao was president and general secretary in China while I was there, and Wen Jiabao was the premier.

I retired in May 2009, eleven and a half years ago, and I'm fully retired. I have been since that time. I have done no work in China or Canada since my retirement, although I keep an interest in China, of course, and I am a senior fellow at the China Institute of the University of Alberta. I give public talks from time to time. If somebody asks me to talk about public service or about China, I'm always happy to do so, but other than that I haven't been engaged at all in any commercial activity.

That's the extent of my opening statement, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wright.

Now we'll go to Mr. McCallum.

This is not your first time at committee. You have five minutes. Please proceed.

[John McCallum, Former Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, As an Individual]

Thank you very much.

Good evening, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

Thank you for inviting me to appear before you today.

I will be giving my presentation in English, but I would obviously be pleased to answer any questions in French.

I commend the committee for its engagement and interest in the evolving Canada-China relationship. I thought I would outline, in respect of my time as ambassador, what I understood to be the objectives of the Canadian government policy in China and how they changed during my tenure.

I want to highlight for the committee, however, some limitations on what I can say here today. First, I don't intend to offer much comment on events or issues that are currently in front of the government and this Parliament. I'm not of the view that governments are anxiously waiting for the policy recommendations of retired ambassadors, ministers and others.

Second, the extradition process for Meng Wanzhou is now before the courts, so I won't be commenting on that.

Finally, I should say that I'm here on my own behalf and that my comments are purely personal.

In March 2017, I went to China as ambassador with a double mandate from the government: to expand our relationship with China and to voice Canada's concerns on values and human rights.

I'll give you three examples of our actions in the area of human rights.

First, I am proud that in 2018 Canada spearheaded a letter from 18 ambassadors to the party secretary of Xinjiang province to request a meeting on the subject of the treatment of Uighurs.

Second, in July 2017, then Governor General Johnston had a 15-minute conversation with President Xi Jinping, in which he asked the Chinese government to allow the jailed Nobel laureate Liu Xiaobo to be moved from his prison in China for medical treatment in Germany. Xi Jinping said that Liu Xiaobo was too sick to travel, and it turned out that Xi Jinping was right, because we learned later that Liu Xiaobo had died on that same day.

My third example relates to China's arrest of human rights lawyers in 2015, known as the “709” crackdown. I particularly remember Li Wenzu, the very brave wife of one of the lawyers, who had not had any contact with her husband for more than two years and who told me she was concerned because her husband had a stubborn streak. She met our Prime Minister and also Angela Merkel. We made representations to the Chinese regarding these human rights lawyers, and eventually Li Wenzu's husband was released.

We addressed security issues on a case-by-case basis, with our focus on what we thought to be Canada's national interest. On the one hand, we worked with the Chinese on major criminal cases and on efforts to reduce the production and export of amphetamines to Canada. On the other hand, we turned down Chinese requests for an extradition treaty. We also turned down a good number of official visa applications in cases where we felt that the applicants' activities in Canada might not be in the national interest.

I believe I fulfilled the dual mandate I received from the government. We were active on human rights issues and awake to Canada's security concerns, while at the same time pursuing a policy of enhanced engagement with China. This approach permitted a positive Canada-China relationship. Both sides were keen to pursue mutually beneficial opportunities while also speaking frankly but respectfully on the issues that divided us.

Everything changed in December 2018, with the arrest of Meng Wanzhou in Vancouver, resulting from a U.S. extradition request, closely followed by the detention of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor in China. From that moment onwards, the top priority of the government and of me as ambassador was to secure the release of the two Michaels. I was in frequent touch with their family members as well as with ambassadors of like-minded governments.

As one of relatively few Canadians who have actually visited the two Michaels in detention, I was determined to do whatever I could to secure their release. On more than one occasion, I tried to convince the Chinese that if they were unable to release Kovrig and Spavor, they should at least improve their living conditions.

Sadly, as you all know, Canadian efforts in this area have so far been unsuccessful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. McCallum, excuse me. I'm afraid your five minutes are up. Perhaps you'll have opportunities during the question and answer period. Obviously, you'll have time to add more.

Now we'll go to the first round of questions, beginning with Mr. Genuis for six minutes, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. McCallum, I'd like to ask if you have any regrets about actions you took or statements you made as ambassador. Is there anything for which you wish to take this opportunity to apologize, either to Parliament or to the Canadian people?

[John McCallum]

I think I've done some useful things in my career, such as in the case of Syrian refugees, as defence minister under Chrétien when we said no to Iraq, and concerning Nelson Mandela's citizenship, but I've never claimed to have led an error-free career.

I have made a number of errors over the years, and since you ask me, I will mention one. I was invited to a meeting with Chinese government officials in the summer of 2019, and my purpose was to try to get them to release the two Michaels or at least improve their living conditions. I painted a dark picture of plummeting support for China among Canadians and I also mentioned as part of this darkness an impending election. In hindsight, I regret having spoken of the election. I don't think it was appropriate. That is one misstatement that I believe I made.

I don't think it made any difference, because at the end of the day the Chinese refused to release or even improve the living conditions of our two detainees, but that was an error I made. I'll leave it at that.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. McCallum. I appreciate your humility in acknowledging it. I would question the assertion that it didn't make a difference. The efforts of the Chinese government to influence Canadian society and Canadian politics are well documented.

Do you think it is reasonable to suppose that your intimation that you think a Liberal government would be better for the Chinese state than a Conservative government could have influenced the direction of Chinese government influence operations?

[John McCallum]

I don't really know what they do. They don't confide in me. I have said to you that I thought that was a misstatement. It was something I should not have said; it could have been subject to misinterpretation.

It had no effect, in the sense that my sole objective was to build a case to favour the two Michaels, and it had no effect on that. It was still an inappropriate statement; I acknowledge that point.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

I wonder whether you regret any of the comments you made with respect to the Meng Wanzhou case.

[John McCallum]

You're probably referring to a press conference I gave in Markham, where I tried to describe the overall situation. I began by saying that we believed the two Michaels had been arbitrarily detained and that we were working with other countries to try to get them released as quickly as possible.

I also gave some description of the Meng Wanzhou case. I made some comments about how the burden of proof is lower for extradition cases, so that went against her, but I also commented on some of the legal arguments she might have, which I just picked up from the media.

The case was not at that point before the courts, so I'm not sure that what I said was inappropriate. I know some people thought it was, but I was really just trying to give to this group the overall lay of the land of the situation with regard to China at that time.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay, Minister, just so your comments are understood, it sounds like you're saying that you maintain that the comments you made in that press conference about Meng Wanzhou were acceptable. I just want your meaning to be fully understood.

[John McCallum]

The comment about the election was, I think, inappropriate. The overall comments about the situation with regard to detainees and Meng Wanzhou in Markham I thought were okay.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you for clarifying your views on that.

Do you believe that the United Front division of the Chinese Communist Party is operating in Canada?

Also, much has been written about the phenomenon of elite capture, whereby western elites are brought under the influence of the Chinese government through gifts and other enticements. Do you believe that the committee should be concerned about the phenomenon of elite capture in Canada by the Chinese Communist Party and by the United Front Work Department?

[John McCallum]

I assume you are implying that I might be one of those elites, but I assure you that—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Do you believe the committee should be concerned about that phenomenon, Mr. McCallum? I wasn't asking about you in the context of that question.

[John McCallum]

Okay.

Certainly I think that sometimes Chinese people come to Canada for inappropriate purposes, and that is why we turned down a number of visas. We felt they were likely to be doing inappropriate things in Canada of various kinds, as you describe.

I think there is this idea of requiring former ambassadors to list the clients for whom they work. I think that right now we are not able to divulge the names of our clients, but if that law were in place, we would comply.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. McCallum.

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

We'll now go to Mr. Oliphant for six minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank both Mr. Wright and Mr. McCallum for joining us tonight. We're honoured by your presence.

I'm going to start with Mr. McCallum. I just want to note that you're an accomplished academic and a practising economist. You're a seasoned politician and a long-time public servant. You served as Canada's diplomat in complex and difficult appointments. I want to begin by thanking you for that life of work.

Unlike my Conservative colleague, I am not going to interrogate you. I'm actually less interested in the past than I am in the future. You don't report to us, but what we would like you—both of you—to do tonight is to help us. We genuinely want to learn from you so that our committee can give a report to Parliament and to government that can actually further the relationship that Canada has with China.

I've been to China twice, once when you were an ambassador—and that was a good trip—and once when you weren't ambassador—and that was an okay trip. You've been to China many times, and you served for almost two years as our ambassador, so you know more than I do and, I think, more than anybody on the committee.

With the work of this committee, we've been hearing two stories.

On the one hand, we hear about the importance of engaging with China economically, socially and culturally. We hear about it in terms of the need of our farmers and their markets. We hear about it in terms of the relationship between scientists, researchers, academics and entrepreneurs, who want a relationship with China, and we hear about how that is a reality in today's world due to their sheer size and import.

On the other hand, we hear that they don't follow the rules. They're not predictable or dependable. The international rules-based order is not being followed. It's not a level playing field. We have concerns about how we are to accomplish that engagement, importantly, and deal with a partner who doesn't play by the same rules we would.

We're at the point now where Canada is looking into the future to say, “How do we do that?” I'm wondering if, given your experience, you can advise us. I think the government is very clear. It's writing a new China policy. The China of 2016 is not the same as the China of 2020. Is there advice you can give to us on how to deal with that dilemma?

[John McCallum]

Thank you very much for your question, and I'm delighted to see some familiar faces again.

I think China is always a two-track issue. As I described in my comments, on the one hand, my job was to try to expand ties with China; on the other hand, it was to express our values on human rights.

I think over time that has evolved. Since 2018 or 2017, issues against China have increased substantially, primarily through our two detainees but also through other events. We now have more information about the Uighurs and about Hong Kong. You know the list.

I think at the end of the day, the government may or may not wish to take stronger measures vis-à-vis China. I'm not here to comment one way or the other on that, but I think that is one of the things the government is looking at. I think now that we're, thankfully, about to get a Biden administration, that could have an effect on the overall global direction in terms of China-U.S. and China-Western world relations. I think that is very important.

At the end of the day, though, I would just say that China will remain important to Canadian universities and Canadian farmers. I think we'll still want their tourists. Therefore, I don't think it's a question of closing down those economic activities, but it's always a case of balancing those two sides of China.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Wright, I wonder if you want to add any comments on that.

[Robert Wright]

Sure. Let me start by saying that since I retired in 2009, China has changed remarkably. They have become more assertive. We've seen evidence of this in the South China Sea and the East China Sea. John McCallum has referred to the situation in Hong Kong and, of course, in Xinjiang province. Those are very worrying trends. China is much more willing now, it would seem, to use coercive diplomacy or even hostage diplomacy than they were at the time that I was there.

When I was there, I found the Chinese tough, difficult to deal with, but always open to input from Canadians. We had relatively easy access to whomever we wanted to talk to at that point in time. I'm not sure that situation is still the case today. I'm just not close enough to it to be able to say.

I do think we can pursue a relationship of closer economic co-operation and at the same time not be naive about the actions that China is taking here in Canada and around the world. We have the capacity to do that. We know that China is active in different areas that we're not comfortable with here in Canada. We know that they don't always play by the rules.

However, we can work with colleagues from other countries. We can develop multilateral approaches to deal with those difficulties and still engage economically and in other areas with the Chinese.

I don't see it as being one or the other.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wright and Mr. Oliphant.

Next, we go to Mr. Bergeron for six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here this evening, gentlemen.

I'm delighted to see you again, Mr. McCallum. Just as you were leaving the House of Commons, I came back. It's a pleasure to have you with us.

We have a lot to learn from the experience of each of you. From your unique vantage point, you were able to see what was happening in the People's Republic of China. Thus far, the committee has had the privilege of meeting with and hearing from a number of your predecessors and even successors. We listened to their points of view.

I want to ask you about certain comments made by other Canadian ambassadors to China. Back in March, Howard Balloch brought to the committee's attention three premises regarding the People's Republic of China and its relationship with Canada, premises he referred to as occasionally recurrent and often fallacious. It's the third one I would like to discuss. I will read it for you: “Third is the premise that there is out there somewhere, simply waiting to be formulated, a comprehensive and coherent new ‘China Policy’ to serve as a course correction for all of Canada's involvement with the huge and enormously complex China.”

The government announced that it has a new policy for its dealings with the People's Republic of China. The government has not released the policy and, we are given to understand, may not necessarily do so. Given Mr. Balloch's third premise and your respective experiences, do you think the government is misguided to think its new policy will help it deal effectively with this new China?