Evidence of meeting #15 for Canada-China Relations in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interference.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Thank you, Ms. McPherson.
That brings us to the end of our first panel.
I would like to thank our witnesses.
Dr. Chantal, Dr. Leuprecht and Ms. Harth, you've been very generous with your time late into the evening. We appreciate that very much.
We will now suspend for five minutes while we get the next panel ready to go.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Thank you, all. We're back in session.
We would now like to invite the two panellists for our second round. Unfortunately, Mr. Juneau-Katsuya was unable to make our session tonight. There was a family issue he had to deal with, and we can certainly understand that.
We are joined by Gloria Fung, president, Canada-Hong Kong Link, by video conference, and Henry Chan, co-director, Saskatchewan Stands with Hong Kong.
We will begin with statements of five minutes or less by each of our guests.
Ms. Fung, given the testing we did on your microphone, I'll ask you to use your “big voice” so everyone can hear you.
President, Canada-Hong Kong Link
Mr. Chair, thank you for inviting me to testify before the committee.
I'm Gloria Fung, president of Canada-Hong Kong Link, a community organization established 25 years ago to promote democracy, rule of law, freedom and human rights in Hong Kong and to encourage the full participation of Canadians of Hong Kong origin in all aspects of Canadian society.
For decades, civil society organizations have reported foreign agents' intimidation of Canadians and meddling in our politics. Unfortunately, our government has not responded to these concerns. Therefore, a comprehensive network of pro-CCP United Front organizations has operated virtually unchecked, threatening our freedom of expression, national security and democracy.
The Chinese police stations are a collaborative effort of United Front organizations and the Public Security Bureau of China, enabling the CCP to stretch its arms far and wide. They repress Asian diaspora communities, collect civil intelligence, and harass and intimidate Canadians who are critical of Beijing's policies.
As a pro-democracy organizer, I have received threatening calls warning me to stop meddling in Hong Kong's affairs or face serious consequences. There have been numerous unsuccessful attempts to hack into my emails. When I was in Hong Kong speaking against the draconian extradition bill, there were attempts to track me down and likely abduct me.
In 2019, CCP proxies organized counterprotests to jeopardize Canadians' freedom of expression in many cities. Clearly, diaspora community members are victims of foreign harassment and intimidation. Above all, we are appalled by CCP proxies meddling in elections at all levels of government by spreading disinformation, manipulating party nominations and secretly funding candidates.
Therefore, the Canadian Coalition for a Foreign Influence Registry, comprising 33 multicultural organizations, urges the passage of a foreign influence registry act with Criminal Code application before Parliament's summer recess. This registry is supported by 88% of Canadians surveyed in two recent Nanos national polls. It would apply to individuals and entities working on behalf of any foreign country, not just China, and to people of every ethnic background, not just Chinese Canadians. It would place no restriction on legal co-operation or exchanges with foreign governments, but it would be a legislative tool to hold foreign agents accountable. The transparency it would provide is sorely lacking now.
There is no connection between the registry and anti-Chinese racism. The cloud of suspicion hanging over our community is not created by talk of a registry but by the covert actions of malign foreign agents. We need to know who they are and differentiate them from virtually all Chinese Canadians.
Urgent action is needed to address this threat to Canadian society. There should be an independent public inquiry. CSIS and the RCMP need enhanced capacity to monitor information and conduct investigations in Mandarin, Cantonese and Fujianese. Finally, Chinese diplomats attached to the Ministry of State Security or the United Front Work Department should be expelled.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Thank you very much, Ms. Fung.
We'll now turn to Mr. Chan for five minutes or less.
Henry Chan Co-Director, Saskatchewan Stands with Hong Kong
Mr. Chair, thank you for the invitation to appear before you to speak on a matter of great gravity.
It has always been known that the United Front's workforce has been operating in Canada to intimidate and harass dissenters. Their work also includes repatriating Chinese nationals for corruption charges.
The same objective was true in 2019 when the Hong Kong SAR government introduced an bill to extradite Hong Kongers and Chinese nationals for corruption and political charges. Mr. Chair, four years ago Hong Kongers fought with their lives to defend themselves from such arbitrary actions by the Chinese Communist Party.
The Chinese police station is an extended arm that intrudes on Canadian sovereignty. It undermines our government, our law enforcement and our democratic institutions. The police stations are an extension of the United Front, and by ousting such operations it paints a picture in the minds of Canadians of just how far the CCP will go to assert its influence on foreign soil.
Mr. Chair, the CCP is testing our resolve, and we must take these threats very seriously.
Around the community I have been collecting testimonies from people who have experienced first-hand the brutal nature of the Communist regime. There was one gentleman I spoke to who left China after constant harassment from the regime, because he merely said a few words against the regime and was recorded by party members. His wife urged him to leave China, and then they settled in Saskatchewan. However, constant bombardments of phone calls and threats made against his extended family in China persuaded him to return. He was only allowed to come back to Canada after selling off most of his assets and handing a significant portion to the government. He was lucky to only lose money. We often hear of people who are persuaded to return and they disappear from the face of the earth.
Mr. Chair, we're here today not only to tell you that there are real people who are in danger of the extended arm of the CCP, but also to call for concrete and meaningful actions.
Since the founding of Saskatchewan Stands with Hong Kong in 2019, we have been calling for government to establish a foreign agent registry to expose those working on behalf of malign regimes. It is not the moon we're asking for. The U.S. passed it in 1938, Australia in 2018, and the U.K. currently has a government bill in session.
In 2020 we organized petition e-2835 to call for a foreign agent registry. Again last November we organized petition e-4172 to call for action to deal with foreign interference and for the immediate shutdown of the Chinese police station. Even before we were able to coordinate the petition, Ireland and the Netherlands had already ordered the immediate shutdown of such operations. On this, our government has been timid and slow.
There are lots of Canadians who care about this issue, and I'm one who does. I intend to share my real views with you this evening.
The news of foreign interference and meddling in our election is very concerning. In the community, I have already been hearing, “Who is running our government?” Many came to Canada because their country was no longer safe.
Now, seeing the overreach of regimes into our democracy is deeply troubling. The public trust has already been shaken. Therefore, there must be total clarity and sunlight as to what is happening and why it was allowed to happen.
My observations are that most of our policies dealing with regimes have been passive in response. I firmly believe that in developing our Canada-China policy, we must bear in mind three things.
One, China does not respect weakness.
Two, the CCP cannot be trusted. It's a regime that has been known to roll back on its own commitments.
Three, we are dealing with a regime that every day attempts to find cracks in our democracy, and we must suspect that they're looking for ways to undermine our stability.
If we keep these things in mind, I believe we will have a better chance of a China policy that is proactive, rather than reactive.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Thank you very much, Mr. Chan.
We'll now go to our first round of questioning, We'll begin with Mr. Chong for six minutes or less.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank our witnesses for coming today to talk about foreign interference and these illegal police stations.
My first question is for both witnesses.
Would you say that the Chinese community is the biggest victim of the PRC's foreign interference threat activities, whether it be the establishment of these illegal police stations, the PRC organizing counter-protests to pro-Hong Kong democracy activists, or other meddling in our democracy?
Maybe we'll go to Madam Fung first.
President, Canada-Hong Kong Link
I fully agree that the Chinese Canadian community is the biggest victim of Chinese foreign interference.
Over the past decades, I have seen our community being infiltrated and manipulated. Many of our community members who are outspoken about Beijing policies have been cracked down upon by some of these secret police or even the United Front organizations in peaceful rallies and other kinds of public forums.
If there's ever a cloud of suspicion being created by the recent discussions of the meddling into elections by the Chinese embassy or its processes in Canada, eventually Chinese Canadians are going to suffer, because there will be a cloud of suspicion. However, we have to be very clear about who has created this cloud of suspicion. It's not the talk or the suggestion of the passage of a foreign interference registry, but rather the actions. It is the infiltration and the meddling into elections by many of these processes that have created this cloud of suspicion. Therefore, even in terms of police stations, the mainland Chinese are by far the biggest victims of this operation.
I have reached out to different mainland Chinese pro-democracy groups, and I have had interviews with a number of people who are actively involved in the anti-CCP or pro-democracy movement in Canada.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Thank you.
I'd like to hear Mr. Chan respond to this question.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Is it the Chinese community who is the biggest victim of the PRC's foreign interference operation?
Co-Director, Saskatchewan Stands with Hong Kong
In terms of CCP interference, I do think that the Chinese people are the first ones they want to attack, especially with the United Front workforce. It is basically towards the Chinese people.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
I'd like to ask a very personal question of both of you.
I'm a Canadian of Chinese descent. I was born in 1971 to a Chinese immigrant father who came here from Hong Kong. I was born in a country where non-whites made up a very small percentage of our country's population and where attitudes were substantially different from what they are today in a country that had only recently done away with its whites-only immigration policy. I know first hand what it's like to be the target of anti-Asian racism.
I find it beyond the pale when I hear those out in the public debate suggest that by raising questions about Beijing's foreign interference here in Canada by advocating for a foreign agent registry, we are somehow responsible for fomenting anti-Asian racism in Canada. I find it beyond the pale that people would suggest that.
I think we have to do both. We have to fight anti-Asian racism and discrimination and, at the same time, seriously counter Beijing's very real threats to our democracy. To do one and not the other is either to abandon our fellow citizens of Asian descent to racism or, alternatively, to allow Beijing to continue to interfere in our democracy.
I wonder if you both feel the same way.
Co-Director, Saskatchewan Stands with Hong Kong
Yes, I feel the same way. I'll start at that.
Other witnesses can talk.
President, Canada-Hong Kong Link
I agree with your sentiment.
Some people have been amplifying this anti-Chinese racism. They aim to create fear and division.
There's no evidence that there's a direct link between the passage of a foreign interference registry and anti-Chinese racism.
To the country, it is legislation protecting diaspora community members from foreign threats and intimidation.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Thank you very much.
We'll now go to Mr. Oliphant for six minutes or less.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
I'm just going to let Mr. Chan respond a little bit further, if he would like to, on Mr. Chong's question.
You didn't really get a chance. If you want to elaborate a little bit, I think that would be important.
Co-Director, Saskatchewan Stands with Hong Kong
I'm guessing you're talking about establishing a foreign agent registry and what contributes to anti-Asian racism. I think it's actually a policy that would protect Canadians in the diaspora community because it targets those regimes that attempt every day to undermine our democratic rights.
I think we must also recognize that revealing people who are receiving funding or support from foreign regimes allows for transparency. Transparency and accountability have been long-standing policies in many democratic communities.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
Thank you for that.
We'll continue a little bit in that vein.
Nobody believes China's assertions that their police activities were legal or appropriate. The RCMP, I believe, has acted appropriately and we have managed to change it.
I want to discern how much of the intimidation that you both have experienced yourselves, or have heard second- or third-hand from others, is related to those police stations. Are we getting a false sense of security by their removal? Will other activities continue because they weren't the only source—or even a primary source—of that regime's activity?
President, Canada-Hong Kong Link
Maybe I can answer first.
I, personally, had direct experience of being intimidated and harassed—actually in Canada. I have, from time to time, received threatening calls. At the same time, there have been attempts to hack into my email. Every time we come to important days like July 1 or October 1, there are emails containing files that are tempting me to open them, so that they can hack into my computer.
The most serious case was the time I was back in Hong Kong. After speaking at an international press conference calling upon the international community to support Hong Kong people in the fight against the extradition bill, I received emails pretending to be from people from mainland China who needed my urgent help. I fully understood that this was an attempt to track me down and possibly abduct me. During my time in Hong Kong, I had to ask all my friends to accompany me back to the hotel every time I finished my meetings.
This is my personal experience. Maybe at another time I can also share cases of other people, particularly the mainland Chinese activists here, regarding their experiences of being intimidated and harassed.