Evidence of meeting #15 for Canada-China Relations in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interference.
A video is available from Parliament.
President, Canada-Hong Kong Link
I think the very first step the government can take is to pass a foreign influence registry, so as to provide a legislative tool for the RCMP to hold individuals and entities with a working relationship with a foreign regime accountable. I've been told by an RCMP officer that the law is not with them. It seems that, compared with other countries, we have very limited legislative tools for our enforcement department to work with. That is why it is so important for us to pass a FIRA as soon as possible.
Second, there should be other measures considered by our government to cover foreign interference in other aspects of society.
Third, I think the RCMP needs to be provided with more resources to enhance their investigative capacity. More importantly, they also need to enhance their understanding of malign foreign interference. In general, it's not only the RCMP. Many of our politicians and bureaucrats have very little knowledge about how foreign interference operates, how to detect it, and how we can come up with an effective strategy to combat it.
All of these take a collaborative effort by the enforcement department and the community, in order to enhance the exchange between the two and restore public trust in our enforcement department.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you very much, Ms. Fung.
I have a clarification question for you.
You are raising the registry as a tool that could be used by the RCMP. It is an important step, in your opinion. One of the witnesses we had testify, previously, made mention of the fact that the bad actors aren't going to put themselves in the registry. It would have limited ability to hold certain members to account.
How would you respond to that?
President, Canada-Hong Kong Link
It is of the utmost importance for us to attach the Criminal Code to the future foreign influence registry. Without it, it's almost like a tiger without any teeth. We cannot oblige individuals and entities working for a foreign government to register themselves with us.
Let us take the Australian model as an example. As soon as the Australian Foreign Influence Transparency Scheme was passed in 2018, many bureaucrats and elected members resigned, and we all know the reason why.
I think it would serve as a very effective measure to force people who are truly agents to come forward and register with the government. If they do not comply with this requirement, they would be subject to imprisonment or a very heavy fine. That is something for our government to consider.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you very much.
One of the other things you talked about was the need for the RCMP to have more resources, in order to be able to do their work—more education and whatnot. We heard, from other people on this issue, that the outreach to the community was very insufficient. In fact, you even mentioned it today. You contact one branch of the RCMP and they say they can't help you. They send you somewhere else. We heard, in previous testimony, that the interaction between local police—city police, perhaps—the RCMP and CSIS was not very well articulated. Folks who were impacted didn't know which way to go. They were passed around. It was not very clear. That's your experience, I understand.
How could we fix that?
President, Canada-Hong Kong Link
Number one, the RCMP needs to do more community outreach initiatives to build trust between the enforcement department and the community, and to conduct public education, so they know how to protect themselves—how to make use of all the existing help provided by our enforcement department to protect themselves from foreign interference threats and intimidation.
At the same time, this is also a very good opportunity for the RCMP to get input from the community on how they can better improve their existing services. Say, for instance.... There wasn't a central hotline before, but I noted that it's now in place. That is a step forward, but it's still not enough.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Ms. Fung, I'm sorry. I know that everybody is just so full of information, but maybe you can work some more of these points into some of the answers to your questions from Mr. Seeback, who is up now for five minutes or less.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Great.
From the report by Safeguard Defenders, “110 Overseas”, I want to read this section and ask you if you agree with it:
Overseas hometown associations, while often providing genuine services to the community, have by now become overwhelmingly co-opted by the CCP’s United Front organizations, which seek to increasingly control the Chinese diaspora.
Perhaps you could both quickly answer. Do you agree with that assessment in the report?
Co-Director, Saskatchewan Stands with Hong Kong
Yes. I do as well. To give an example, in those organizations other dialects were spoken in the past. Now it's just Mandarin.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
My next question leads off of that. Would you consider these police stations to enhance the ability of the United Front to, if I can use some of your words from today, harass and intimidate the Chinese diaspora here in Canada?
President, Canada-Hong Kong Link
I agree. I think for lots of community members, the existence of police stations on Canadian soil is really appalling to them. As I mentioned—
President, Canada-Hong Kong Link
Yes, it's very intimidating, because they don't feel safe anymore with this kind of CCP police station operative on Canadian soil. That's why the government needs to take immediate action to stop the operations of these police stations, just like other European countries have already done.
Co-Director, Saskatchewan Stands with Hong Kong
It's not only some of the questionable behaviour but also just the terror that it paints in people's minds.
Co-Director, Saskatchewan Stands with Hong Kong
Yes. I think it thrives off of the fear of losing other freedoms. I think the freedom from fear is perhaps the most important. Once you are fearful, then other freedoms are taken away, or—
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
I'm going to keep building on this. You've used the phrase “persuaded to return”. I'm going to suggest that a more accurate phrase would be “coerced to return”.
First of all, would you agree with that? Secondly, do you think, again, these police stations enhance the ability of coercive return?
Co-Director, Saskatchewan Stands with Hong Kong
Yes, because they are threatening your family. There is really nothing you can do to save them. They are so far away and you're here. The only thing is to comply with what they want.
President, Canada-Hong Kong Link
I think our government has not done enough to stop this kind of foreign government operation on Canadian soil. The RCMP needs to step up their actions to hold accountable these foreign agents, foreign police, and also people from the United Front organizations that have broken the law to jeopardize other Canadians' fundamental rights.
For people who are from abroad, they should be expelled right away. That should also include the diplomats who are attached to the ministry of state security and also the United Front Work Department. I think we have been too lenient towards this kind of malign influence in the name of diplomats.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
I absolutely agree.
Mr. Chan, in your opening statement you said that the government's response to these police stations was too timid and too slow. I think you have about 45 seconds, so I'll let you expand upon that.
Co-Director, Saskatchewan Stands with Hong Kong
Yes. For anybody, and I think a lot of you would agree with me, it looks like it is against international law and Canadian law. Before we were even able to coordinate the petition that was presented this morning, the Netherlands and I think Sweden already shut them down. We were still investigating, investigating and investigating. I think it's still investigating right now.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
That's your time, Mr. Seeback. Thank you.
We'll go to Ms. Yip for five minutes or less.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Thank you for coming to our committee meeting. I know it's late, but I'm very thankful that you are both here with us today.
A recent CBC article references Mr. Juneau-Katsuya. He was the witness who was supposed to come but, unfortunately, had pressing family matters. It is about the intelligence reports that suggest the criminal triads Beijing used to intimidate pro-democracy demonstrators in Hong Kong were also present in Canada since 1998. How far back have you heard about the tactics of intimidation and political influence happening in Canada against the Chinese community?
I'll go to you first, Mr. Chan, and then to Ms. Fung.