Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 19th, 2019

[Hélène Laurendeau]

I will ask Ms. Théberge to give you more details on the projects currently funded through the program.

Like any other program that operates on a project-by-project basis, this program is quite specific and operates under quite specific conditions. We certainly put more money into it. We wanted to be able to set the stage for the coming into force of the act. We spread out the amount until 2020 because we wanted to make sure there would be some temporary funding. In this way, when the act comes into force, we will have all the funding related to the specific obligations of the act.

The program will allow two things: it will continue to support the preparation for implementation, but it will probably also serve as temporary funding to specifically fund the agreements under clauses 8, 9 and 10 of the bill.

I can ask Ms. Théberge to give you more details on the types of projects that are currently being funded.

[Mélanie Théberge, Manager, Policy and Research, Indigenous Languages Legislation, Department of Canadian Heritage]

I'm sorry, but I have no idea. I did not participate in the program. I'm really sorry.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

I thought it was within your purview.

[Mélanie Théberge]

No, not at all. I was looking after the bill.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

That's the sort of surprise you get when you're new.

That being said, we can send you a list of projects that have been approved this year. These are mainly very specific projects carried out by organizations that work in a very specific way to support languages. We will send you more details. I'm sorry I can't provide you with this information. I thought it was Ms. Théberge's responsibility.

I don't know.

Stephen, do you know what the types of projects are?

[Stephen Gagnon]

No.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

We will most certainly send you a list.

[Steven Blaney]

It would be nice if you could provide us, if possible, with a breakdown of the amounts invested.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

Actually, I will send you the description of the program as well as a list of the projects and amounts that have been approved over the past year.

[Steven Blaney]

There is a consensus on the spirit and purpose of the bill, but sometimes the devil is in the details, or in the lack of details.

The minister talked about the project-based approach, which he did not seem to advocate for the larger envelope. However, again in a context of accountability and performance, if there is a beginning, a middle and an end, there is a greater chance that the money provided will help to achieve the objective of revitalizing languages, whether it's Cree, Innu or any other.

The minister refused to tell my colleague David Yurdiga how much it would cost. Without telling me how much it will cost, can you tell me how the money will be used? How will Canadian Heritage ensure that there will be results, that indigenous languages will be saved and that we will not be chucking money out of the window without results? That's a colourful expression and I'm being a little harsh, but I'd like to know what it looks like. We are being asked to approve the bill and the funding associated with it, but no one can tell us how much it will cost or how the money will be spent. This puts us in a tricky situation.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

Thank you for your question. This is perhaps the most difficult part to explain. I will do my best to answer your question.

We had two options in designing the bill. We could have waited until we had all the data, all the details, for the 90 indigenous languages to come up with a funding formula. This is what we often see in the provinces when it comes to funding education. However, while we would have done that, the languages would have continued to erode. In addition, our partners had made it very clear to us that we needed to act now, even if it just meant establishing some kind of baseline to determine what the best practices were.

As we establish agreements, which will be defined according to the needs that First Nations, Inuit and Métis have presented to us, we will create the database. In partnership with the commissioner, we will use the database to establish, for example, during a five-year review, a more precise funding formula that can be based on the population in question.

So far, the data have been too variable and the needs too different for us to have been able to define them all in the bill. That is why we decided, with our partners, to provide the capacity for funding through funding agreements. These will be long-term, so that we can measure the results and determine the types of practices that work well. This will allow us to design a funding formula that can be incorporated into the legislation later. For the time being, we intend to do this by taking into account the needs as defined by our partners.

In addition, during our consultations, we learned that various groups had taken a number of very specific measures. Some groups focused on educating young people in school, while others created programs to promote culture. If we had tried to define the full range of measures and programs in the bill, we would probably have forgotten some. In addition, we may well have stopped funding things that deserved to be funded.

In partnership with our colleagues, we decided to do the opposite, that is, to commit to providing funding based on the needs determined by our partners. From there, the commissioner can help us determine which practices are most effective.

That is how the bill was designed.

I’m not sure whether Mr. Gagnon has anything to add.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

We are out of time.

We're going to Ms. Jolibois, please, for seven minutes.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Have there been any discussions with educational institutions across Canada, specifically relating to language retention, teaching languages and various educational institutions?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

We have had consultations with educators.

Stephen, could you tell us which educational institutions we consulted?

[Stephen Gagnon]

At the engagement sessions, there were people from all over the place. I think some of them were from indigenous organizations that teach, but are you asking specifically about school boards and things like that?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

There are various levels. There are the universities and various departments within universities across Canada—the University of Manitoba and the University of Saskatchewan—and in the east and the west. There's that, and locally, there are the provincially run school boards. Where I come from, the Northern Lights School Division is one, and they offer.... There are different levels that I'm looking at.

[Stephen Gagnon]

When we did the engagement, and Mélanie may know this better than I do, we didn't focus on groups. We focused on areas. We said, for instance, that we were going to have a first nations session in Winnipeg. People came, but I didn't always know where they came from. I do know that in Toronto, for example, there was a prof there from York University's linguistics section who made a presentation. I don't know specifically....

Mélanie?

[Mélanie Théberge]

During the early engagement, we were meeting with language experts, academics. They would have been invited. I would say that was from post-secondary education. When we reached out to the community in what we called the intensive engagement, this would have been at the local level, where the community could have chosen to have an educator to come and speak. Most of the people who were there were actually educators.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

What I hear in the funding formula, or the funding, is that we're leaving out the key piece, which is the post-secondary facilities where they're actually providing this. For example, at the University of Saskatchewan, they're offering Cree immersion, or there's the University of Manitoba and other language groups.

How were they invited? You're talking about the engagement pieces and those who came to be part of this process. How were they invited? Who invited them to come?

[Mélanie Théberge]

For the early engagement, we basically used lists. Every time we were reaching out in the community, we would reach out to the people in that region. For the community, it's the community that decided who to bring. We also were working with the three national indigenous organizations to help us in making sure that we had the right people at the table.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Again, it really makes me nervous, because there are so many key groups that are looking at language retention across Canada who don't necessarily look to the national political organizations. The friendship centres, yes, we've talked about them, but the elders groups, or be it prenatal groups at a local level or various....

[Hélène Laurendeau]

Yes.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Because with the formula to apply for funding, the way it's laid out, we would need partners in these various organizations, I would think.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

You're making a very important point, and thank you for making it. That's why, when I mentioned a little earlier how broad we wanted to be in terms of which organizations can be part of an agreement for the purpose of maintaining languages, it could also include provincial or territorial institutions, like universities or even school boards. The minister can facilitate and co-operate with those types of organizations, with the interested indigenous group in a specific region.

Those tripartite agreements would be possible under that to make sure we reach out to where language support and language revitalization happen. In cases where it happens in schools or in the school system, it would be possible to actually flow money to those organizations, provided that it is the choice of the indigenous groups that are concerned in that region.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Again, it's “look for”. What do you mean by that?

There's the importance of, for example, the school boards. The Northern Lights School Division is an example. The majority of their board of directors are first nations and Métis. They provide the education. The school division would apply for funding for the schools so that their schools can teach and offer programming.