Information & Ethics Committee on Dec. 4th, 2020

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Chair, excuse me. I'm really sorry. I have a point of order.

We've had a couple of requests for written remarks. If it's all right, can we inform the witnesses to please put in writing and submit any further information they think is pertinent to their answers? I know that time is short.

I apologize to Mr. Angus.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Yes, absolutely.

Certainly if there is any question you were given that you couldn't finish and that you want to make sure is on record with the committee, please don't hesitate to send that in to the clerk and we'll add that to your remarks.

Now we go to Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming and updating us on the work on the ventilators. We are very pleased that you've actually managed to keep on track to get these ventilators out, because we are coming into the second wave and it's going to be a frightening time, I think.

Frank, I just have to close on this. I think you'll appreciate it. I really appreciate that my Liberal colleagues have been defending auto plants and small workers and trashing everybody on my side of the hall and asking why we're dragging you through the mud here. Well, Frank, it's the way the negotiations went. I had a big long list of people I wanted to bring and they came to me and said, don't bring Rob Silver. Katie Telford says we don't want him at committee. Why is that?

Then they said, we don't want to deal with the judges issue, the issue of bringing forward the partisan Liberal lists about judges nominations. They said, bring Frank Baylis. I said, that's great; we'll bring Frank Baylis. I think they enjoy you as much as I do, so when they ask why you're here, I have to say I was just trying to help out my Liberal colleagues. They really wanted you out of those other guys, so I'm going to go back and look at them and say, maybe I should have invited them instead.

Anyway, I hope you guys are doing well and staying safe. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much, Mr. Angus.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Point of order, Chair.

I waited until Mr. Angus finished. I thought it was in the routine proceedings that we discussed and then agreed to that when it comes to discussion of the selection of witnesses, we do that in camera. I know that Mr. Angus just brought up a few names, but that was part of the discussion, I think. I don't know. It sounded to me like it was part of the discussion of witness selection.

I just want to bring this up to you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Dong.

I believe he was talking about private conversations, not conversations that happened in this committee. That's what I heard.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, I don't believe it was in camera.

I don't think Mr. Dong has a point of order. Every time I speak— Frank, you'd love it—Mr. Dong has a point of order. If you were here, you wouldn't put up with that.

Anyway, thank you so much for coming.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

That's not true, Charlie. I think the reverse is true.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

All right, colleagues.

Let me thank the witnesses, Mr. Baylis, Mr. Godara and Mr. Jamieson, for taking the time out of their day.

Mr. Jamieson, you mentioned that you have been working 16 hours a day. We greatly appreciate that. That means we've taken a substantial portion of your value from today. I want to thank you for your investment here.

Frank, on behalf of the entire committee, we want to share with you our sympathies and express our condolences to you for the loss of your father. I apologize that I did not begin with that. I certainly wanted to end with that.

[Frank Baylis]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Gentlemen, keep up the good work.

We're going to suspend now so that we can get our new witnesses in and start our second half.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Welcome to the second half of our meeting, colleagues.

We have before us now, from the Department of Indigenous Services, Christiane Fox, deputy minister, as well as, from the Department of Finance, Michelle Kovacevic, assistant deputy minister, federal-provincial relations and social policy branch.

Now we will go to the witnesses.

Ms. Fox, you have up to seven minutes for your opening remarks.

[Christiane Fox, Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services]

Thank you. I won't take up the seven minutes, but I will deliver a few opening remarks.

I'll start in French and go into English.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members for inviting me to appear before the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

My name is Christiane Fox. I'm the deputy minister of Indigenous Services Canada. I used to be the deputy minister of intergovernmental affairs at the Privy Council Office.

I'll start by providing some context to describe my role in the WE charity youth proposal.

Prior to the last federal election, I was the deputy minister of intergovernmental affairs and youth. I supported the Prime Minister, in his capacity as minister of youth, on key youth files, including Canada's first ever youth policy and the Canada Service Corps program.

Following the election and the appointment of the cabinet, I remained responsible for intergovernmental affairs. However, the youth responsibilities were transferred to Canadian Heritage, as was the youth secretariat.

On April 20, I received a call from WE Charity, as they wanted to discuss their proposals for youth entrepreneurship and a youth service program, given my previous role as deputy minister of youth for the federal government. I agreed to share this proposal with colleagues in various departments and to provide them with feedback based on my experience with the Canada Service Corps.

I received their proposal on April 22. Over the coming days, I shared their proposal with officials and departments. However, I did want to flag with the committee members that I did not have conversations with political staff from the Prime Minister's Office or the Deputy Prime Minister's Office regarding this proposal.

During that week, I was also tracking the progress in the event we would need to share details with provinces and territories, something I did regularly on all COVID-19 support programs on our daily calls with provinces and territories. In the end, the only briefing that took place was on the overall students package announced on April 22.

My next interaction on this file occurred on May 21, when I was asked to join the briefing for the Prime Minister to provide him with insight based on my previous experience with ESDC's Canada service program. I shared at the briefing the following points for consideration. I noted that the single biggest challenge with the Canada Service Corps was ramping up the service opportunities, taking over a year to get to 1,800 opportunities across the country. In this context, I indicated that I did not think it would be feasible to create 20,000 opportunities in four months using the same program. I indicated that using an outside organization that was national in scope, with a strong digital platform and previous experience in youth engagement and service, could be a good option. I noted the importance of having bilingual opportunities. I indicated the focus that would be required to remove barriers to participation for under-represented youth. I indicated that any selected partner should work with other youth-serving agencies to maximize youth participation.

Following this briefing, I realized that I had not shared my feedback directly with WE Charity, as I had been solely focused on my work on the COVID response, working with provinces and territories and supporting the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister on the weekly meetings of first ministers and the regular bilateral engagement that took place with jurisdictions. Therefore, to make sure to convey what I felt were important considerations, on May 22 I spoke to WE Charity and shared my general thoughts on a potential youth service program, as I did at the briefing the previous day.

Mr. Chair, this is the extent of my involvement in this program. I'm happy to take questions from committee members.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much for those opening remarks.

We'll now move on to Ms. Kovacevic for seven minutes.

[Michelle Kovacevic, Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

Good afternoon.

My name is Michelle Kovacevic. I am the ADM of federal-provincial relations and social policy at Finance Canada.

I don't have opening remarks. I testified on WE Charity in July before the Standing Committee on Finance. My opening remarks from that testimony, and my testimony, of course, are available to members.

I'm happy to go ahead and answer any questions you may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much.

We'll move right to the first round.

Mr. Barrett, you have six minutes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you.

I would like to thank the witnesses for joining us today.

Ms. Fox, what was discussed at your April 20 meeting with WE?

[Christiane Fox]

WE Charity gave me a call to tell me they had proposals with respect to a youth entrepreneurship program as well as a service program. It was a fairly brief conversation. They indicated that given my role as the former DM of youth, they were curious to see if I had any time to look at their proposal and to discuss it. They gave a sort of high-level overview of both proposals, and then followed up with an email a couple of days later.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Did you help them focus their proposal during the course of that meeting?

[Christiane Fox]

I did not, no.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

We understand that WE met with finance officials on that same day. Did you communicate with anyone at Finance about that meeting?

[Christiane Fox]

I did follow up with an email to some of my colleagues, but not on the 20th. On the 21st I had an email exchange with Finance, just saying that this had come to my attention, because what I had told WE was that all of the youth secretariat was now found at Canadian Heritage, and that there were a number of departments that may be interested in their proposal given the entrepreneurship angle and the youth service angle.

What I had told WE was that I would share that with colleagues, which I did. On April 21, I did have an exchange with the Department of Finance with respect to the proposal.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay, thanks.

It seems, based on the number of meetings they were having, that they had a clear desire to run the CSSG at that point. What was discussed at your April 23 meeting when you briefed the Deputy Prime Minister?

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you for the question.

What I did throughout the COVID pandemic, and what I continued to do throughout the summer, was very much focused on.... Every time there was a government program that was rolling out, my responsibility was to make sure that I was sharing the details of that with provinces and territories ahead of public announcements, to give them a heads-up, to have an exchange about it. There was often follow-up after the fact.

Between the 20th and 23rd, I did a lot of work but I did share it with different departments. On the 22nd, I briefed provinces and territories on the student program announcement, but not in detail on the WE proposal. I thought that perhaps we would need to brief on the WE proposal at some stage, which is why I wanted to stay informed; but in the end, on April 23, ahead of the first ministers' meeting, we did not talk about the WE proposal. Therefore we briefed on the other elements of the first ministers' meeting and not on the WE proposal specifically.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay, I'll come back to that.

You were the PM's deputy for youth. Did you have any dealings with the WE organization?