Evidence of meeting #14 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was jamieson.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:35 p.m.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Okay.
My next question is for Ms. Fox.
You said earlier that you contacted WE on April 20. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think that I heard the name of the person whom you spoke to.
Which WE representative did you speak to on April 20?
2:35 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
I can confirm that I spoke to Craig Kielburger and Sofia Marquez.
2:35 p.m.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Are you responsible for verifying who Sofia Marquez is and whether she's listed in the registry of lobbyists?
2:35 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
No. It isn't our role to verify these things. As my colleague Ms. Kovacevic said, it's really their role.
2:35 p.m.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
That's fine.
I have another question for you, Ms. Fox.
Earlier, I had a hard time understanding the nature of your communication on April 20. You had already been in contact. You were already familiar with the organization.
What was the specific situation?
2:35 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Yes, I was familiar with the organization because of my role as deputy minister of youth. However, on April 20, the organization representatives called me and told me that they had two proposals in mind. The first proposal involved an entrepreneurial innovation program, and the second proposal concerned a Canada Service Corps program. They just wanted to let me know that they were working on a proposal; that they had spoken to other departments; and that they wanted to send me a copy of their proposal, for information purposes.
2:35 p.m.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Have they asked you whether the proposal could be robust enough in a context that may involve pandemic-related needs? We saw earlier that people have reacted well when it comes to saving people's lives. Did they question you to find out what could happen?
2:35 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
I think they had already determined that the need existed and that something must be done for young people. They had already prepared a proposal for the Canada Service Corps program. In that context, we had the conversation because they knew I had worked for the program and had some experience. So they thought I may have ideas to share with them.
2:35 p.m.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Okay, that can be assumed, but did you know that Sophie Grégoire and Justin Trudeau had very close ties to the organization?
2:35 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
All I can tell you is that the organization clearly has a relationship with many Canadians, including a number of politicians. I did not have any details on the organization's personal relationships. I had details on the organization and its presence among young people. I was somewhat familiar with the work it had done and its engagement program. That is really what I was looking at, especially in the context of our youth policy. The organization was very well known after all. In fact, that organization is present in all schools and has numerous impacts across the country.
2:35 p.m.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
As I still have a bit of time left, I will put the next question to Ms. Kovacevic.
Concerning the assessment of WE Charity's capacity, I would like to know what your role is and what kind of precautions you must take in a contribution agreement. What rules must be followed in terms of vigilance and reports before a contract is awarded?
2:35 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Thanks for the question.
I should be clear that the Department of Finance and I certainly had nothing to do with the actual contribution agreement. We have something to do with the funding decision up front—a $900-million provision—for which the ESDC minister had to return to the cabinet.
With respect to your question about what the rules are for any contribution agreement, there are very clear guidelines and policies set by the Treasury Board Secretariat on grants and contributions and on everything that needs to be followed. I trust that my colleagues at ESDC would have been abiding by those policies for all of us.
2:40 p.m.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Do the rules specify the extent of services to be provided to organizations? Is it specified that this must be done from coast to coast to coast, so including in French? The organization also did not have an office in Quebec.
2:40 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance
That is probably not something that would be in the guiding Gs and Cs policies. That would be something to probably ask whoever put the contribution agreement together.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
Thank you very much.
That's all the time we have, Madame Gaudreau.
Now we'll go on to Mr. Angus for six minutes.
2:40 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you so much, Ms. Fox and Ms. Kovacevic, for coming today.
I want to ask Ms. Kovacevic about April 10, when Craig Kielburger wrote personally to Bill Morneau. He writes, “Hi Bill, I hope this finds you, Nancy, Henry, Clare, Edward, and Grace enjoying some well-deserved downtime”. Then he pitches his $12-million project.
He pitches it directly to the minister, and then 11 days later it gets approved. Isn't that an extraordinarily short time to approve a project of this nature?
2:40 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Is that for me, sir?
2:40 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance
All right. Starting from the top, I was only made aware of Mr. Kielburger's email to the minister when all the emails were revealed as part of our commitment to the Standing Committee on Finance.
In terms of when the proposal was approved, I would remind committee members that on the date of the announcement of the student package—the $9 billion, of which this $900-million Canada student service grant was a part—there was no approval by the Prime Minister or the Minister of Finance for anything related to WE. The approval was strictly setting aside $900 million, a high-level announcement and a direction to the minister responsible at ESDC to return with a proposal.
2:40 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance
That's all I can speak to.
2:40 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
That's interesting, because on April 21, in the finance minister's annex 4, under the headline “Minister of Finance Decision”, Bill Morneau allocates $900 million for the CSSG, but also $12 million. It says, “In addition, the Minister decided to provide up to $12 million to Employment and Social Development Canada to support the WE Social Entrepreneurship....”
So how is it you didn't know that Minister Morneau had just approved $12 million? This is 11 days that this project is on his desk to being actually in a government binder. That's a really, really short turnaround time, don't you think?
2:40 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Let me correct the record. The Minister of Finance verbally approved what I just mentioned, the $900-million set-aside and the direction for the ESDC minister return. He did not approve anything related to WE, and neither did the Prime Minister at this juncture.
This paper that you're looking at in annex 4 was what we in the department had put together, which he never signed. We only received a verbal approval on the first two things.
2:40 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Yes, I saw that. It says, “Annex 4...he didn't sign...[but he] wrote OK.” Is that how business is done? I see that the $912 million is referenced by the Prime Minister. They don't just refer to $900 million. They refer to $912 million.
I ask this question because this social entrepreneurship program had nothing to do with the pandemic. It may have been a crisis financing for the Kielburger operation, but the social entrepreneurship was not a response to the pandemic. The fact that in his binder he signed off on this issue I find is really extraordinary, because you yourself referred to Minister Morneau's relationship with the Kielburgers as “besties”. It seems to me that something was going wrong here when $912 million was listed as having been approved.
Was it approved verbally only? How is that credible?