Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 21st, 2024

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

How many police investigations into fraud cases are currently open at the agency?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I couldn't tell you how many investigations are currently open.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Hamilton, can you answer that question?

[Bob Hamilton]

Yes. I can't say how many for sure, but what I can tell you is the way we look at these cases. If we see that there is a possibility of criminal activity, we have our own criminal investigators, and we can also refer it to the law enforcement authority.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

How many cases have been referred to the police?

Mr. Chair, perhaps the minister could send that information to the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Please answer that question quickly, Mr. Hamilton.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

The question is very clear. How many have you sent to the police?

[Bob Hamilton]

I would have to consult with my team about exactly how many, and we may even have to get back to you on that, but we do have the ability to do that, and that also applies not just in fraudulent cases like this but also in tax evasion cases where we might see criminal activity.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Housefather, you have five minutes. Go ahead.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for appearing before the committee today. Before I ask you questions, I'll turn to Mr. Hamilton.

Mr. Hamilton, on the 31,000 cases that keep getting cited, this was not just one breach. This was a series of different, smaller breaches. Is that correct?

[Bob Hamilton]

Yes, that's right. It was a similar type of breach in many cases, but yes, it was a bunch of breaches.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

These were third party breaches. These were not breaches of the CRA's own system; these were breaches of third party systems linked to the CRA. Is that correct?

[Bob Hamilton]

Yes. If you take a stylized example, it would be where somebody gets information from another third party outside, maybe a financial institution. That information is sold on the dark web or however, and then people use that information, that password or identifier, to try to break into the CRA system. We saw instances of that during the pandemic, when there were significant amounts of money at play, and that caused us to really ramp up our activities in the fraud space beyond what we had before the pandemic.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

I'm trying to clarify things that have come up in some previous rounds to give you a chance to explain. There were a number of questions from Mr. Green about the timing of when you became aware of these breaches, and because there were a number of different breaches, you became aware of them, no doubt, at different times.

I'm not trying to ask for a specific date, because I think that's where you were getting caught up. You were trying to think if you heard on February 14, February 27 or March. Can you remember around what period you became aware of the different breaches?

[Bob Hamilton]

Are you referring to all the way along?

I would say that there was a big event in about August 2020, when we uncovered that there was a lot happening, and we saw some vectors coming in. That was a big number. Since then, we've seen some of those types, but we've also seen other types of cases where people have not necessarily come in and tried to get CERB money or what have you; they're using the speed with which we give out refunds, etc., to try to create false returns and get refunds. It's a different kind of fraud, but we did see those coming up. That's a continuum; it doesn't happen all on one day. It happens as you go. I would honestly have to say that I don't know the specific dates of when it went from 23 to 25 to something else, but perhaps some of my colleagues do.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

No, I understand. I think it's because this was happening over rolling periods because there were different breaches, so you don't have one specific date that you can just remember offhand, because you were probably briefed a number of different times about breaches. Is that correct?

[Bob Hamilton]

Yes, that's exactly right, and they continue. At least where people are trying to attack us, I think we're getting better and better at resisting those. The other thing we pay a lot of attention to is that, when we know about it, we block the account; we take action, and then we pay attention to the individual. We try to resolve that as quickly as we can.

Earlier we talked about there being some delays. It's a big backlog coming out of the pandemic, and we spend a lot of our efforts trying to focus on protecting that individual's account and giving them credit protection where it's warranted. Then we work through it, solve the case and see exactly what happened and what needs to be done to remedy it. I'd like to be able to move even faster. We are moving faster now, but we are still dealing with many cases that came up in the early 2020s.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you very much.

Minister, I know you are a really hands-on person, and this is not new to you.

When you took on your role at the Canada Revenue Agency, you clearly told employees to inform you of anything important, right?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

You know me very well, Mr. Housefather.

Let me take a quick second to answer Mr. Berthold's question. There have been 135 convictions, $25 million in fines imposed, 58 individuals sentenced to prison terms for a total of 108 years, and $44 million in federal taxes evaded. Those results cover the last five years, from 2019 to 2024.

Thank you, Mr. Housefather.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Bibeau.

Mr. Chair, do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

You have three seconds. Your time is up.

Thank you, Mr. Housefather.

Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Two and a half minutes isn't much, so I'll go quickly.

Minister, I get the impression that there's more of a culture of secrecy than a culture of whistle-blowing at the Canada Revenue Agency. How many cases of snooping are there?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

You're talking about snooping by employees, right?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Yes.

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I assure you that we are monitoring that closely. We have mechanisms in place. Our systems enable us to know when an employee consults a file. An employee who just consults their own file gets five days' suspension. We take that very, very seriously.