Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 19th, 2025

[Michael Sabia]

It's because, as I said, we have identified a series of sectors, and we judge our activities and guide our activities partly based on those sectors and partly based on more specific information with respect to the operation of individual companies in the list of the 103 companies. If we have any question or uncertainty, we confirm all of that with the Ethics Commissioner, so we have the benefit of—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

I'm not asking about the 103 companies—

[Michael Sabia]

No, you are—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

I'm asking specifically about this particular fund.

[Michael Sabia]

No, Mr. Cooper, that's not true. You started your question by—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

Well, how is it not true?

[Michael Sabia]

Mr. Cooper, you started your question by saying that this fund is on the list of the 103 companies—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

It is, and I asked you then whether—

[Michael Sabia]

—and what I'm answering for you—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

—you were aware of the holdings behind that fund—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm going to need one at a time here—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

—and you answered in in the negative. I followed by asking you whether the Ethics Commissioner was aware of the holdings within the fund, to which you answered in the affirmative. Then I asked you how it's possible for you, as the administrator of the screen, to administer it when you don't have that information.

[Michael Sabia]

Well, now that we're playing replay, I'll just say what I said before: One of the reasons that collaboration between us and the Ethics Commissioner is important is that the Ethics Commissioner has access to a full range of information, and we check everything with them.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

As the administrator of the fund, shouldn't you be privy to the full range of information? Why is it that you have only some of the information?

[Michael Sabia]

Well—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

It doesn't make any sense. The Ethics Commissioner supposedly has a list of the holdings; why, then, wouldn't you ask for a list of holdings?

[Michael Sabia]

That's because, given our collaboration with the Ethics Commissioner, it's certainly, in my view, not necessary.

If there's any ambiguity—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

Are you saying it's not necessary? When the Prime Minister stands to make tens of millions of dollars in future bonus pay, are you saying that you don't think it's necessary to have a list of the holdings?

[Michael Sabia]

No, Mr. Cooper. I think that is not the case. I think that's clearly not the case. We—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

What's clearly not the case?

[Michael Sabia]

Mr. Cooper, as I said in my opening remarks, the moment we believe there is the potential for a conflict, a screen goes up.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We're going to have to come back to this.

Ms. Church, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Leslie Church, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Clerk, and thank you for setting the stage for us today here at the committee by impressing on all of us the deep-rooted culture of integrity that Canada has shown its commitment to, and what you've described as a rigorous process, fully validated by the Ethics Commissioner, which I think satisfies many of the questions that we've had as a committee as we've looked into this act.

My question for you might start with the difference between the respective responsibilities of the public service versus the political arm of government when it comes to conflict of interest compliance.

Can you describe those two sides of the process?

[Michael Sabia]

Ms. Church, I think that they are in many ways very similar.

Within the public service, we do our work clearly and obviously on a non-partisan basis. We review these issues through individual departments and through our work in the Privy Council Office.

However, as you know very well, there is another aspect to government, which is the operation of political offices. There, there is quite a bit of business that transpires. I'm thinking in particular about the setting up of meetings and the management of schedules. There, there can be a case that a political office would be in the process of establishing a meeting with the Prime Minister or the Minister of Finance, or another minister, and they will have that information. That's why it's important to have the two levels—these two aspects of government, the public service side and the political side—doing their own work, because we each have our own responsibilities. They're sometimes joint, but sometimes they're separate.

It's also why it is important for us to share the information that we have, which we do, and that they share the information that they have, because the more information you have, the better you can make judgments.

[Leslie Church, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

As I understand from your testimony, the Ethics Commissioner's office is also available to both sides of the equation.