Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 1st, 2006

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

It's good to see both of you again.

I was intrigued by your comments along the lines of capacity building. On page 9, you make the following reference:

It is important to have coherent and well-considered approaches. The growing interest in supporting political parties, for example, needs to be considered carefully.

Just as an aside, my brother was in the former Yugoslavia before their elections. He was helping with a project there on how you run and organize campaigns. One of the issues was to tell them—and this is literal—to leave your guns at home when you go canvassing, and to teach them how to interact. I had the same reaction as you did, that it's absurd. But it was just the culture of their democracy. In that, he was working on the ground in terms of how you formulate a political party, how you come up with an agenda, and how you go out canvassing and get your message out.

I'll just touch on your point here. You were saying it has to be considered carefully. Are you aware of approaches, or have you been involved in how to support political parties and how to nurture that capacity?

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Mr. Chairman, the remarks were really meant to elicit the kind of question that has been raised, because I was following the transcript from previous appearances by others in front of this committee. The word of caution I was trying to sound is that others have attempted and others continue to support particular political parties when they're abroad. I'm thinking of the IRI and the NDI. The NDI is somewhat less direct than the IRI, the International Republican Institute, in the United States.

What I saw Canada do in the Ukraine--I think it was in 1991, because I participated--which was through a university effort, was to mount a program for different political parties and the Chief Electoral Officer and pollsters in Canada to go speak and explain how to mount a campaign. All the parties in the Ukraine were invited to attend, and they could send delegates.

The difficulty is that if one party or a number of parties are to be supported directly, then that gets into the question of which parties are supported and which parties are not supported--which becomes the other very operative phrase--and on what basis. For instance, there are 157 parties--or another number, I can't remember exactly--in Iraq.

That's what I was trying to allude to. The numbers are a problem. The choice could be a problem. If there's a general approach and you get the expertise, but it's shared equally amongst all of those who wish to partake, then that is what I would suggest might be the way for us to go.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I also appreciate your comments about the fact that you are, hopefully, seeing them as independent bodies internationally. It would also be important for the country you're helping out to see that you're not with the “government”, and therefore a party. I think that's an excellent point. Is that understood internationally? Maybe it's not initially, but I'm sure you underline that you are not part of an arm of government or a party.

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

I make it a point whenever I go into another country to meet ministers, prime ministers, or presidents, and the other parties that are there, to make that point very clear to all of them. This is one of the strengths of what we do, actually. It's well appreciated by the media as well in those countries.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

That's a good point.

Along those lines you've also referenced the idea of perhaps not going it alone. You are asked to do it, and it fits some criteria, which I'm sure you have when you are going to a certain country. Is it important, in your opinion, to have a multilateral approach when you're approaching and supporting, particularly developing nations, that it not be just Canada going it alone, but that you be supported by other countries?

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

As a matter of fact, my remarks were meant to indicate that I don't think we should hesitate to go it alone, effectively, despite the fact that there are risks. I can only relate to the people whom we're trying to help, and we shouldn't hesitate.

Obviously, it's nice, and in some cases it's important, to have partners, and in other cases it's highly desirable, but I don't think it's essential. I don't think we should hesitate even if there are others to take the lead. If there's failure, there's failure, but the nobility of trying is still there. The fact that we're able to relate to the individuals we're trying to help is what matters to me, and I don't think we should hesitate on that.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I have one final question, Chair.

On page 8 you talk about the Democracy Council. I'm not aware of the Democracy Council. Could you elaborate a bit on that?

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

I thought others might have alluded to it in their appearances.

It's a group of NGOs and arm's-length organizations that has been set up within the Government of Canada under the aegis of CIDA and Foreign Affairs. It's co-presided, co-chaired, by the two deputies. Effectively it has become a forum for exchanges among the participants about where we are and what we're attempting to do.

What I was also alluding to in my remarks was that I think we need to establish all the democratic development needs of the countries in which we want to participate—I said this in my remarks in French—so that we have a total picture of everything that is required, and we get all of the people to intervene. Otherwise, if we do it on a piecemeal basis and help one sector because it is more visible, and not help the others, then maybe we're not doing as well as we could or getting as good a bang for the buck--which is always a preoccupation of people--as we could if we did provide that extra $500,000 for people who would go and explain how a free media, a free press, works in a country like Canada. Sometimes that half million will make the other $10 million that you've provided really pay off. Until we get the complete picture of the democratic needs of the country we're trying to assist, I don't think we're doing as well as we could be doing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Dewar.

In reference to your Democracy Council, IDRC and the Parliamentary Centre are part of that, and they have been before our committee.

We're going to go very quickly to Mr. Patry, Mr. Goldring, and Madame Bourgeois for some very concise questions.

Mr. Patry.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Kingsley, Ms. Davidson, I'd like to go back to the elections in Haiti. I have two brief questions to ask. First, is it possible that the provisional electoral council may become a permanent electoral council? Every time there are elections, for security reasons, for various reasons, we have a lot of trouble finding people to be part of the provisional council, who can really work on a provisional electoral council.

Here's my second question. We know there are two presidential rounds — there was only one this time — and two legislative rounds, and that there will be municipal elections. So you're virtually going to have four elections in one year. Since senators are elected for six-year terms, there's going to be another election with alternating terms: 10 senators elected every two years. So there's going to be another election of 10 senators in two years. We also know that all that's well entrenched in the Haitian Constitution, that it's very difficult to amend that Constitution, that the cost of an election is enormous there and that it is completely funded by the international community.

Knowing all that, wouldn't it be possible to conduct studies to see if we couldn't twin, combine the legislative elections with the presidential or municipal elections? The money that's spent on elections could be spent in another way. It could be used to help relieve poverty, to help the country, which so needs it. I wonder, given the cost, whether the international community will still be able to support elections again and again. That's very costly, and Haitians currently can't afford to hold them themselves.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Patry.

Mr. Kingsley.

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Mr. Chair, that question precisely concerns an important part of the evidence that Mr. Bernard gave when he appeared before this committee during his last visit to Canada. In fact, the provisional electoral council will become a permanent electoral council once the municipal and local elections are over, because it is those bodies that will have to elect the members of the permanent electoral council. So this is a movement from the bottom up, as a result of which the members of the provisional electoral council will form the permanent electoral council. Obviously, that will succeed provided there is money to pay them a salary. That's provided for in the Constitution, and that's how it should work. That partly explains the importance of the municipal and local elections. The other part is ultimately to have a local power that meets the public's requirements more fully than if those people were appointed by a central authority.

As to the frequency of elections, Mr. Bernard noted that the cost will become astronomical, as you said, because of the frequency of the elections. Haitians will clearly have to reconsider how they want to manage that. I can tell you one thing: my international experience tells me it will be very difficult to get donors to take part again in the next elections, whether it be Canada, the United States, or the European Union, because people will feel they've made their big effort for the first three rounds of balloting. For the next ones, Haitians will have to get organized. So the Haitians will have to reconsider their constitution in that regard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Kingsley.

Madame Bourgeois.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have two questions; I'll try to be brief.

Mr. Kingsley, our committee will have to submit a report in a few weeks on how we view the establishment of democracy. That's very important for us. I realize you have vast experience and that you're making points that we've heard elsewhere, coming from other countries. I see that you're all working together on democracy.

Is it possible to get your opinion in writing? You said earlier that democracy should be based on the values, history and culture of the country. I think that's extremely important. Have you previously compiled all your experience, and information in a document that you could file with the committee? That's my first question.

My second question is this. We see on your Web site that the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade determines whether Canada should take part in establishing democracy, that CIDA funds interventions and that Elections Canada provides the necessary competencies. I suppose that means three separate budgets.

Could you submit to us the budget that is allocated to you when you go to another country and make efforts to re-establish democracy? You said earlier that you were lacking resources.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Mr. Chair, as regards a compendium of the thoughts of Elections Canada, or of the Chief Electoral Officer, regarding the international scene, I'll check to see whether we have anything on that subject. I have had occasion to make speeches on the international scene, and I would be pleased to provide you with such a document as soon as possible.

Second, as regards budgetary conditions, we can also inform you on that, but I can tell you that Elections Canada's efforts on the three voting rounds in Haiti have cost a little more than $9 million. The cost for what we were able to accomplish in Irak was nearly $2 million. We could submit more accurate figures to you in the case of other major missions in which we have taken part.

However, I'd like to add, with regard to my earlier remark, that, ultimately, when we have a majority government and I can deploy resources, out of our core budget, I do so. However, we can't respond to that kind of request out of our budget when we're dealing with a minority government or when a country in particular is asking for too much. I can't do that, and I can't hire experts from outside Elections Canada out of my budget because, in that case, I need the support of other government agencies. However, if we can afford to do it without impoverishing ourselves or Canadian voters, we do so. That can happen.

However, I'm going to cite the example of Nigeria. Its delegation, which recently visited us, asked me as they were leaving the country, if I could immediately provide them with planning experts, who would go with them on their flight back. That's what their country needs: people who know how to plan. That's a particular problem they're dealing with. But, no, I couldn't do that because of the Canadian government's minority situation.

I would need additional funding, and it isn't always easy to go and see CIDA to tell it that Nigeria needs a person and that it's going to cost $25,000. That's not always easy because CIDA has its own needs. So it's not always easy for us to meet all demands.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Kingsley, and thank you, Madame Bourgeois. That was a very good question.

We're very close...15-minute bells. We're close to where the bells are, so we'll take a very short, concise question from Mr. Goldring, and then we will conclude.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Mr. Kingsley, I was down in Guyana monitoring the elections there. Maybe you could just elaborate a bit on whether Elections Canada had any involvement in that and whether the election process we're helping with in Haiti would be following that model. Is there some commonality of modelling?

You've worked in 100 countries. How is it decided that Elections Canada will be involved in a country? Guyana now is one of the 25 countries under the aid list.

Also, in regard to the machinery that's put in there, in particular in Haiti--a considerable amount, hundreds of computers set up--is that equipment able to be reused in this upcoming election? In other words, is the massive amount of electronic equipment that's put in there maintained from election to election so that it can be reused again?

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

The answer to the latter question is yes, the same equipment is being used. The Conseils Électoral Provisoire continue to exist between the rounds, even though there was difficulty in arriving at December 3 as an election date. There was a long hiatus there. Mr. Bernard spoke to us about this.

In terms of Guyana, Elections Canada was not involved in any way in the Guyanese election. I don't know who was from Canada, if anyone was.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Are you invited to these places, or do we advertise or in any way say we're available to go help? Do we just sit back and wait? How do we let them know of our availability and our expertise?

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Well, sometimes it will be the United Nations that will get in touch with me, sometimes it will be the OAS. They know of our capacity.

But in this particular case, the scenario that was being considered at one time was to mount an effort in Guyana similar to what we did in Haiti, but that fell apart.

Because they were so impressed with how things were done in Haiti, the CARICOM association wanted to mount something similar, but they dropped the idea, for whatever reasons--it may have been financial. After that, the interest evaporated. No one else approached us.

But to answer your question very directly, Mr. Chairman, people know of our availability around the world, and they call and ask. But we're not able to always accept. It so happens that we turn down opportunities. This is what I meant by saying that if just a few extra resources could be made available, the magic that would accomplish through Elections Canada, for Canada, around the world would be felt significantly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

I feel I've been saved by the bell, by the way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Kingsley and Madam Davidson, for being here and helping our committee. We always look forward to you, and we welcome you back any time.

We are adjourned.