Human Resources Committee on Oct. 30th, 2025

[Andrew Tarr]

In our industry, we deal with a lot of private career colleges that are taking government funding. I think the big downfall with this is that they don't track the people who are getting the training. They should track everybody who gets government money and determine how successful they are.

If a college is doing a good job and getting people jobs, no matter who they are, you want to keep them going, but there are a lot of colleges out there, private career colleges, that are taking the money and aren't getting anybody jobs.

If you give money to someone, track them. If the college fails, take them out of the program or quit funding them.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Very briefly, Mr. Tarr, following up on this issue of young people having a career plan in mind before they start their studies, how can we do more to get vocational programs into high schools and get younger people thinking about the kinds of career options that you're involved in?

[Andrew Tarr]

I think they need to make it easier for a tradesperson to teach in a high school. Right now, a person who goes to trades....

I'm a tradesperson. If I wanted to teach in a high school—although I think they make exceptions—a lot of times they require a teaching certificate.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It's interesting, because you could be an instructor at a post-secondary institution, but you can't teach in a high school.

[Andrew Tarr]

That's as far as I know. I'm not too familiar with it. I just know they have trouble getting people there.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes, it's a problem. I agree.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

Ms. Koutrakis, you may go ahead. You have five minutes.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Tarr, in your comments earlier, you said that currently many colleges that are taking government funds are not doing a good job.

Do you know that to be a fact, or is that something that you are assuming?

[Andrew Tarr]

There could be some assumption, but some of these colleges that we see operating are tied to immigration services, so they partner. A lot of times, they have government funding on the bottom of their emails.

A lot of training money goes out to different colleges, and whether it comes from the provincial government or the federal government, I think we need to track it better to see who's successfully training people.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

With respect, I will push back a little on that.

Earlier in your testimony, you said that there's a lot of red tape and that processes are in place as well. If there's a lot of red tape and there are guardrails in place, then how can we just assume that if funds are leaving the government coffers to go to colleges that are tasked to train the future skilled tradespeople, the colleges are not doing their job?

It's either that the government guardrails in place are doing a good job and are finding the colleges that may not be doing what they're supposed to be doing and giving the results that are needed, or not. I fail to see how it could be both.

[Andrew Tarr]

I just see some of the colleges getting funding and then.... To be fair, before this meeting I didn't go and look at all the colleges to see what training they're giving.

There could be some assumption, and it could be some provincial money, but in all, I think that when the government gives money for training, they should track it better.

Maybe provide the students that are taking the courses with a way of complaining if they aren't getting jobs.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

I'm sure there are mechanisms to that effect.

Mr. Vultur, are there countries that stand out on that front, countries Canada could draw some inspiration from? Are there any helpful experiences you can share with us?

[Mircea Vultur]

Yes, other countries use models, various programs, for example.

I mentioned New Zealand. There, employers get direct subsidies to hire young people for full-time work, while providing on-the-job training. We don't have that model here.

If we look across the country, Quebec's youth employment centre model is quite good and could be expanded nationally.

Great Britain promotes crossover skills; through technical and vocational training, young people learn a wide range of skills to help them enter the workforce.

Dual training is another model, and much of the focus is on work placements. It's the model Germany has adopted. As part of the training, students spend half their time in the classroom and half their time working in a business. I think Canada could apply that model, in order to achieve better alignment between training and labour market needs. It's worth noting the difference between the two types of training. They have different goals. The goal of a university, for example, is to produce graduates, and the goal of the labour market is to produce qualified workers with skills that can be applied immediately to the labour market.

Those are some models Canada could draw on, but obviously, there are others.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

If you had one recommendation for the government, what would it be? What is the first thing it should do to improve the situation?

[Mircea Vultur]

I would say better alignment between the skills gained through training and the skills needed on the labour market.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

All right. Thank you.

Mr. Tarr, if you had to make one recommendation to the government about where we can be more helpful in making sure that we have the skilled tradespeople we need for our economy—construction, building and Red Seals—what would that be?

[Andrew Tarr]

Support the apprentices who are in the system. Right now, the EI system is very difficult and can create problems. An example would be that, if an apprentice.... In the construction trades, it's very common that workers in the construction trades leave a job to go to another job. If the employer puts “quit” on their ROE, they can't collect money for going to trade school. An apprentice can apply to unemployment, to go to trade school, to subsidize their wages while they're going to trade school for eight weeks. If they haven't worked enough and built up the 52-week bank, they can't collect, so maybe look at creating a special class for apprentices, because, sometimes, they might be unemployed or not be fully employed. When I was an apprentice and I was unemployed, I'd go to trade school. If things were slow, you'd try to get into trade school. Just fix the unemployment system to help the apprentices, because, typically, they are the first ones unemployed when things start slowing down.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Tarr. I did not want to cut you off, because you were making valid points about the system.

Ms. Falk, you have five minutes, please.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Mr. Tarr, I've heard you say, a couple of times throughout this meeting, that there are not enough jobs. Why are there not enough jobs?

[Andrew Tarr]

There are not enough jobs compared to the...people who are applying. There are a lot of people looking for work in the trades—piles of people. I imagine that the 80 applications I get a week are just a fraction of what's going on in the province of Ontario. We don't have the work, and I get that from these people applying. I sit and talk with some of these people, and they complain that they can't get work. Well, there's no work.

The reality is there's only so much work out there, and there are people who are capitalizing on the labour shortage. It's no secret: When you go out and watch TV, they're talking about the shortage in trades, so people are going into the trades because they think there's a lot of work. Then, they get to the trades, and there's not enough work. Right now, in some of the unionized trades, they're experiencing 30% unemployment, because there's no work. The housing market in Toronto is slow, and they're experiencing an unemployment rate. It comes and goes, so it....

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Like Ms. Goodridge, I come from an area where energy and agriculture are big economic producers and drivers within my riding. A lot of people will come from out east—from the Atlantic provinces—to work. A lot of them are trades-oriented people who are coming for well-paying jobs to provide for their families.

I know that within the last 10 years of this Liberal government.... We've heard it, too, from different witnesses who have come to this study to testify to how the government sort of talks about certain industries, which seems to be deterring Canadians and young people from going into their industry. Definitely, in my neck of the woods, it's energy. We've heard this with forestry.

Ms. Goodridge brought up the just transition, where the government talks about doing that and basically says that these jobs you do aren't good, so they're going to train you in something better, which is then deterring youth from going into these areas.

It's interesting that you say that there's just a lack of jobs and work for people to do. Would that be contributing to a lack of productivity in these different industries and different areas?

[Andrew Tarr]

No, it's not, necessarily. I think what happens is that when we go out, do research and listen to employers and they say they can't find people, they aren't always asking all the right questions.

I am concerned that in the long term we're going to have a problem filling in the need for tradespeople, because of the retirements. There's a lot going on in the industry. When I need 150 people to apply for a job, there are thousands. Ontario is a big place, and you can give only so many people.... It's very hard to explain how that's working.

I don't think the data is always accurate when they say there are not enough people for the jobs. Sometimes the jobs don't pay enough for people to be attracted to them.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, with my remaining time here, I believe that you'll find agreement among committee members if I move this motion:

That, notwithstanding the usual practices of the committee concerning access to and distribution of documents,

a. up to three associate members of the committee per party be authorized to receive the notices of meetings and notices of motion and be granted access to the digital binder;

b. the associate members be designated by the offices of the whips of each recognized party and sent to the committee clerk; and

c. the provisions of this motion expire as of January 26, 2026, unless otherwise ordered.

I hope we don't even have to go to a vote. I think we just celebrate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

This motion has been adopted at other committees. Do I see a consensus and unanimity that the committee adopts the motion put forward by Madam Falk?

(Motion agreed to)

We'll move to the next questioner.

Mr. Joseph, you may go ahead for five minutes.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I won't be using all my time, Mr. Chair.

I would just like to ask Mr. Tarr a two-part question.

First, in your experience, why do young people choose a career in your sector and what deters them from doing so?

Second, are there any temporary foreign workers in your field?