Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 1st, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Good afternoon, honourable members. I welcome the witnesses and guests. This is the 32nd meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the agenda, we are going to proceed with the study on the Nutrition North Canada Program.

This will be the first time in our fall session that we're going back to a series of witness hearings, followed by questions. We'll be following that normal course today, in that we have six different witness groups with us here this afternoon.

We'll be starting off and limiting opening presentations to five minutes each. We'll proceed much in the same order as is on your agenda today. After each presentation is finished, we will proceed to questions from members.

I know members are always eager to get in as many questions as possible. We have a pre-set order as to how the questions go. The first round is seven minutes. That includes the question and answer, so we try to keep our questions and responses as succinct as possible.

Once we do the first round of four questions, each seven minutes, then it goes to a five-minute round. I know that some of you have done this before. And this will come back.

When we start the presentations, keep in mind, if you are reading from your text, we have simultaneous translation going on. So keeping it at a good, slow pace, pretty much the way I'm talking right now, is good for the interpreters. That way, we can be sure every bit of your presentation is heard.

Let's proceed. We'll go in order.

We'll welcome first Mr. Richard Jock, who is the chief executive officer for the Assembly of First Nations. Welcome, Mr. Jock. Please go ahead with your presentation.

[Richard Jock, Chief Executive Officer, Assembly of First Nations]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Today I'd like to focus on the need for involvement and full participation of first nations in the development and implementation of the Nutrition North program, which was announced in May of this year. This includes having the proper mechanisms and tools to ensure that the proper execution of the program is done, and it also includes accountability and transparency. The AFN is pleased, as part of this implementation, to see Health Canada taking a more prominent role in the Nutrition North program than they previously had in the food mail program, particularly given the health implications of access to nutritious foods. Some of those I'll just review briefly.

Over half, 55.2%, of first nations children on reserve are either overweight, 22.3%, or obese, 36.2%. First nations children between the ages of three and five are more likely than not to be obese. Type 2 diabetes accounts for 10% of youth onset diabetes in North America. It's an emerging problem in first nations children and youth, and there's a significant number of first nations children and youth cases reported in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and northwestern Ontario. First nations people are four times more likely to experience type 2 diabetes than non-aboriginal Canadians. The actual rate of diabetes among first nations is 20%, which means one in five first nations people are diabetic.

The incidence of cancer is rising faster in first nations communities than in the general Canadian population. It is now the leading cause of death in some first nations communities. A poor diet and obesity are two of the greatest risk factors contributing to this emerging crisis.

Community-based nutrition initiatives, therefore, will be a vital component to promote the consumption of both healthy market foods and traditional foods. This is particularly important as many first nations do not have access to dieticians or nutritionists, and it's important that capacity-building be built into Health Canada's funding agreements in support of community programs. By way of context, the new Nutrition North Canada study impacts 27 first nations communities across northern Canada that are on the eligibility list, and 17 first nations communities that are on the nominal subsidy list. These communities are in the Northwest Territories, the Yukon, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec, and the Atlantic provinces.

To date, there's been little communication with first nations citizens and communities at the grassroots level--in other words, those who will be impacted directly by the program. In fact, the AFN has heard from a number of first nations communities that they're not aware of the new program, its details, or how it will affect their communities. It's the understanding that preliminary communications have focused on retailers and wholesalers to ensure they are ready for the new program to come into effect.

Additionally, from our review of the details, our general view is that these are sufficiently vague and that we really need time to have feedback from communities in order to have informed input into the process. Two examples are that the eligibility criteria are unclear for both the communities and for the subsidized foods. Also, without regulations for the price of food, it may be difficult to enforce the subsidy at the point of sale and to ensure that this subsidy is being passed on to the consumer. We also need to ensure that communities not currently eligible because of lack of participation in their previous food mail program can be eligible in the future and may be able to apply for the subsidy.

There are also some transition mechanisms that need to be looked at. For example, withdrawing a subsidy for non-perishable foods and non-food items means that retailers need to order stock well in advance, which presents other challenges. Other communities, even if they're able to do so, don't have the ability to store stock, which may drive up costs due to the need to have additional storage space rented. There's also concern, given the timing of this, that barge and ferry services will not be available as those generally are not available in about one month.

In conclusion, by including first nations in the development of a nutrition program, we feel we can address these issues before additional challenges or problems emerge, and first nations and the AFN are keen to engage in those discussions and to work out those important elements.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Jock.

Now we'll proceed. We are going to welcome today, from the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, Chief Arlen Dumas, from the Mathias Colomb First Nation; and also Grand Chief Ron Evans.

I assume, Chief Evans, you're going to lead off for the presentation, and then certainly you'll both have an opportunity to participate in questions. So please go ahead.

[Grand Chief Ron Evans, Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the standing committee, as well as the other witnesses. I thank you for this opportunity to present on behalf of the chiefs of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, together with Chief Arlen Dumas, Mathias Colomb First Nation.

It is good to speak with members of Parliament from all parties on this committee, and to greet you in a good way, so we can both understand the situation of Manitoba first nations.

Of the 63 first nations in Manitoba, 25 communities are considered remote and isolated. I believe you have the maps with you. Fourteen are remote and can only be reached by air or water, which means they may be accessible by winter roads only six weeks a year, as changing weather patterns are lessening the use of winter roads each year. Eleven are isolated, with some being accessible by rail, although not on a daily basis, and some by lengthy gravel roads and possibly a ferry.

Many of these first nations are not accessible for freight for two to three weeks during freeze-up in the fall and breakup in the spring.

Although in the recent past I have urged Ministers of Indian Affairs to continue the food mail program, we see that the Government of Canada is implementing the new Nutrition North Canada program. Thus, we are here today to make recommendations for improvement.

The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs supports the way in which the new program states that most nutritious, perishable foods such as fruit, vegetables, bread, fresh meat, milk, and eggs will receive the highest rate of subsidy, and we look forward to finding new ways of including commercially produced, traditional northern foods in this program.

The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs wishes to remind the standing committee members that Canada is a northern country, and that the 25 first nations in Manitoba who are remote and isolated deserve to be full participants in this new program.

We have reviewed the May 2010 announcement of this new program by the then INAC minister, the Honourable Chuck Strahl, and the present health minister, the Honourable Leona Aglukkaq, both of whom I have had the pleasure of working closely with on other initiatives. However, it causes us some concern that the announcement stated that it reinforces the Government of Canada's commitment to the northern strategy, which is focused on the Arctic. We urge this committee and this government to involve the remote and isolated communities of Manitoba in further design and implementation of this new program.

The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs recommends a fair review process to review and reinstate several first nations being cut from subsidies for nutritious food at lower cost. This process must include more communication with the first nations in Manitoba regarding what has been developed and what is anticipated to happen.

Five of our northern first nations are set to be cut from any transport subsidy program as of March 31, 2011, including two of our northernmost first nations. The first one is Barren Lands Dene Nation, which is listed as Brochet, and it's air only. Mathias Colomb Cree Nation, which is listed as Pukatawagan, gets rail freight once a week, and its satellite community is Granville Lake. The others are Opipoon NaPiwin Cree Nation, listed as South Indian Lake; Sayisi Dene First Nation, listed as Tadoule Lake, again air only; York Factory First Nation, listed as York Landing, access by road and ferry. These five first nations, which make six communities, must be able to make their case to continue to receive freight subsidies through the new Nutrition North Canada program.

Please note that the third Dene first nation, Northlands Denesuline at Lac Brochet, is on the third list of communities that will be continuing from the food mail to the Nutrition North Canada program. This makes these lists quite questionable, as the three communities are all accessible only by winter roads or air and are within about a 30-minute flight of each other.

The fair review process must also apply to the next category that will be on a watch list for 2012-13 to re-evaluate their continued subsidy access. This list includes four first nations accessible only by air: Berens River, Bloodvein, Pauingassi, and Shamattawa.

The Nutrition North Canada Advisory Board must include at least one representative from the remote and isolated first nations in Manitoba.

There must be at least one representative of the remote and isolated first nations in Manitoba included in the formal committees responsible for the monitoring and evaluation of this new program, to ensure that attention is paid to ensure that a fair review process is established to reconsider the inclusion of remote and isolated first nations in Manitoba to be involved in the Nutrition North Canada program.

We need to ensure that stores do follow-through on labelling food and goods under the Nutrition North Canada program as “subsidized” and charge at a lower price.

We need to ensure that milk prices are lowered and continue to be set at a lower price.

We need to ensure that Health Canada works with the Nutrition North Canada Advisory Board and remote and isolated first nations in Manitoba to develop the community-based, culturally appropriate nutrition education components, such as promotional materials and activities with Manitoba first nations to encourage healthy eating. These initiatives are to be incorporated into the stores receiving federal subsidies, such as exhibits, signs, handouts with recipes--for example, healthy foods diabetes prevention initiatives undertaken by Neechi Foods in inner city Winnipeg, which have received national acclaim.

We need to ensure that the Health Canada and first nations food security initiative is connected to the Nutrition North Canada program in effective ways, including the first nations in Manitoba, and that their recommendations are heeded to improve the Nutrition North Canada program.

Thank you for this opportunity of speaking with you today.

The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs is committed to working together with the Government of Canada and all partners, including the private sector, in achieving a better future.

Ekosani.

Chief Arlen Dumas has comments for this committee as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Maybe we could just incorporate those comments, Chief Dumas, into the question and answer period. We're well over our five minutes. I'm sure we'll have an opportunity....

Did you have something, Grand Chief?

[Grand Chief Ron Evans]

Sorry about that. I was speaking slowly, at your request, for the translators, just for the record.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Of course.

Chief Dumas, did you want to take a minute and perhaps just capsulize your comments and then whatever was missed there we'll try to incorporate into the responses during that period of time? Go ahead, for a minute, and we'll see how we make out.

[Chief Arlen Dumas, Chief, Mathias Colomb Cree Nation, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to echo the comments of my colleague. I'd like to commend this program and the potential that lies therein. However, when we take one step forward sometimes we take a couple back.

My community as well as a few of my other colleagues' communities are some of the communities that have been or will be removed from this process. I'd have to object to that, because, for instance, yes, there is a railway into my community, but that train only comes once a week.

For some of the people in our communities who do not have a regular income or are under some form of subsidy, they're sometimes unable to access freight on those days. Therefore, I think it's important that we have a proper dialogue, so that we can move ahead and actually enhance the potential this program has and properly reflect the needs of the people it will serve.

With due respect, I will cut off my comments with that. However, I'm hoping to contribute later on in the discussions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Yes, of course. I think there will be ample opportunity to do that.

Thank you, Chief Dumas and Chief Evans.

The pace was great, by the way. It was spot on. Good for you.

We would now like to welcome Bernadette deGonzague, Sr. Health Policy Analyst for Chiefs of Ontario.

Ms. deGonzague, please go ahead.

[Bernadette deGonzague, Senior Health Policy Analyst, Chiefs of Ontario]

Good afternoon. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the committee for the invitation to Chiefs of Ontario to speak about this important issue and also to pass on regrets for Ontario Regional Chief Angus Toulouse, who couldn't be here today.

I'd also like to acknowledge the traditional territory of the Algonquin people here in Ottawa.

Many nations have approached food security from the perspective of food as a human right, so we fully appreciate Canada's efforts to improve access to healthy foods through the new Nutrition North Canada program.

Poverty and food insecurity and diets high in processed foods and lacking in traditional foods are well-known determinants of health and are implicated in the major conditions that negatively impact the health status of many of our people. These include, as Mr. Jock has mentioned, type 2 diabetes, childhood obesity, heart disease, cancer, as well as poor oral health, which impacts both physical and mental well-being.

I'd like to address some of the positive aspects as well as some of our concerns for first nations in Ontario as this new program is implemented. Since we had only less than two weeks to prepare for this presentation, we haven't had time to gather adequate feedback and input on the process from our communities. Therefore the points that I bring out here today are by no means representative or all-inclusive.

The food mail program review report by Graeme Dargo made several recommendations based on discussions primarily with Inuit communities, organizations, and other stakeholders. However, he did not appear to conduct discussions with any of the 32 fly-in or remote first nation communities or organizations in northern Ontario, only eight of which are eligible for Nutrition North. So we have no information on why some of these communities didn't use food mail, which eliminates their eligibility for the new program. The Dargo report also mentioned possible transfer of this program to Health Canada. Such a transfer will need to be transparent and involve discussions with first nations if it does go forward.

Communities need to be involved in the determination and periodic review of the list of eligible foods to be sure that they are culturally acceptable as well as healthy. We're happy to see recognition of the importance of traditional foods. However, the requirement that they be commercially packaged to be eligible restricts this benefit to a select few northern producers of Inuit country foods. So we support the implementation of provisions for transport and sharing of locally harvested traditional foods within northern Ontario region as well, to help reduce reliance on market foods.

Critical to the success of the program is the need for a mechanism to keep retailers accountable in keeping their prices as low as possible on the subsidized items.

Although the advisory committee will be conducting audits, without regulation they will have no authority to enforce pricing limits at the point of sale. We have concerns about what consequences there will be for a retailer who isn't compliant. If the subsidy is removed from the community, it may leave them with no recourse and result in exorbitant food prices. We need to be assured that this program will not result in financial losses that will in turn result in less healthy foods being ordered by retailers, or those losses being passed on to consumers by increases in the prices of other items.

As far as the eligibility criteria, 24 remote communities in Ontario are only eligible for a nominal subsidy or none at all. Use of the minimum weight order as a requirement for eligibility penalizes smaller communities that could still benefit greatly from the subsidy. We therefore recommend greater transparency in how this eligibility was determined as well as a mechanism to allow currently ineligible communities to apply for the subsidy in the future.

In 2006 food prices in three fly-in communities in northern Ontario--two of which were on food mail--were used to determine the cost to feed a family of four, which was close to $1,400 a month. That is double the average of $700 for municipalities in Ontario.

Since first nations demographics include larger families and a much younger population, the average cost to feed a family including teenagers--and if any of you have teenagers you know--would be even higher. Making these communities ineligible for subsidies under Nutrition North Canada will only result in even higher food prices.

The Health Canada nutrition education component is an important aspect of the new program, as remote communities don't always have access to dieticians or other nutrition professionals to provide this education. However, we'd like to be assured that the resources for this education will not be redirected from other Health Canada program areas, such as CPNP or ADI. Staff in these communities are already stretched to the limit providing education within communities specific to diabetes prevention and maternal health. This is a prime opportunity to expand the community food educator program to increase community capacity by training lay educators.

In closing, we look forward to our first nations being fully involved partners in the development, implementation, and evaluation of this program. We need to ensure a positive impact on the health and well-being of our people and accomplish the mandate of the program to improve access and availability of healthy foods.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much, Ms. deGonzague.

I have just one question before we carry on. You used a couple of acronyms there—CPNP....

[Bernadette deGonzague]

I'm sorry. CPNP is the Canadian prenatal nutrition program, and ADI is the aboriginal diabetes initiative. My apologies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Excellent. I just wanted to make sure of that for the record. Not a problem.

Now we'll proceed. Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mary Simon. Welcome, Ms. Simon, again. She is the president of Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami. It's great to have you here again. Please go ahead with your presentation. We are keeping the presentations to about five minutes for the opening, and then we're going to go directly to questions from members.

Please go ahead.

[Mary Simon, President, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami]

Good afternoon.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today.

The nutrition program is vital to the lives of Inuit, and I am pleased that this committee has made the time for this very important study. As you know, food prices throughout the Arctic are alarmingly high. I think Ottawa residents would be shocked if they were forced to pay $15 for two litres of milk or $8 for a loaf of bread. Yet that is our reality in our communities.

As numerous studies have found, these conditions are producing escalating rates of hunger, especially among our children. The Nutrition North Canada program builds on the federal government's long-standing recognition of unacceptable food insecurity in Inuit communities, and we commend the government for the program's focus on nutrition.

Inuit have some concerns about the transition to this new food subsidy program. With exactly five months left before the full rollout, we believe there are still many challenges to overcome. ln the short term, there appear to be inadequate resources in place to meet the targets of the transition, with potentially serious ramifications for small retailers and Inuit consumers. For instance, in my home community of Kuujjuaq, in northern Quebec, in Nunavik the local independent store began implementing price increases of 40% on items such as disposable diapers and canned vegetables, after subsidies were removed from these items in early October.

An incomplete understanding of the social and economic impacts on independent retailers could ultimately decrease, not increase, the choices available to Inuit consumers who do not have the option of expressing their discontent with food prices by taking their dollars elsewhere. ln addition, there seems to be a great expectation placed on the program's external advisory board--a volunteer board--to track and provide advice on consumer satisfaction with the new food subsidy program. Details of the retail registration process, community-customized food subsidy rates, third-party auditing and claiming processing systems, and marketing and outreach planning for the program still remain unknown at this point. We do not yet know how the program's funding will grow to meet increased demand with burgeoning populations and increased awareness of the program.

Around the world there is evidence that uncoordinated efforts lead to adverse effects on the most insecure food, and those effects will probably be compounded more severely in the Arctic by the effects of climate change and the global food, fuel, and financial crises witnessed in recent years. We encourage the Government of Canada to create mechanisms for engagement between the public and the private sectors, so that ordinary Inuit may collaborate on concrete solutions to food security and nutrition issues.

Moreover, efforts to make the program accountable must be directly tied to the efforts to track and evaluate its impact on the food security and nutritional status of its users. We need innovative thinking and expanded capacity, especially during the transition period. Examples of innovations include the potential to expand the country food component of the program to support the sharing networks making up traditional Inuit food systems.

Finally, I would like to remind you that Inuit are the major users of these programs. Nearly two-thirds of all eligible communities are predominantly Inuit. And roughly 90% of funds spent on Nutrition North Canada's predecessor, the food mail program, were spent in Inuit communities.

It is Inuit consumers and small northern retailers who will bear the brunt of Nutrition North Canada's growing pains. So the socio-economic realities of food-insecure Inuit families must be paramount in our thinking and in our actions.

Thank you very much. I will be glad to take your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much, Ms. Simon.

We also recognize that we have Anne Kendrick here, senior policy advisor with Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami, as well. It's great to have you with us.

We have two representatives here with us today from the Nunavik Regional Board of Health and Social Services: Marie-Josée Gauthier and Elena Labranche.

Ms. Labranche, you're going to lead off, and we'll go from there. Thank you, and go ahead.

[Elena Labranche, Representative, Nunavik Regional Board of Health and Social Services]

[Witness speaks in Inuktitut]

Thank you very much for allowing us to be here for you to hear our concerns about the food mail program.

I'm Elena Labranche. I'm the assistant director of the public health department for the whole Nunavik region in northern Quebec. I'm here with Marie-Josée Gauthier. She's the only nutritionist for the region, for the 14 communities, which are all remote.

I'll be talking about a few facts about the food source problems we have in Nunavik.

The latest research results have concluded that food insecurity is at 24%. The poverty level is up to 30%, and 44% of the households maintain minimum comfort budgets. There are almost no employment opportunities in most of the communities. Welfare is at the maximum, and people using the system get the same amount of funds as people using the same welfare system in the south.

The cost of groceries is enormous. On average, the cost is about 57% higher in Nunavik compared to Quebec City. A bag of groceries that would cost $200 in the south would cost a minimum of $314 for the same basket. Country food is another source we use very often, but country food can't be relied on at all times because of the seasonal migration of the animals. Most times they don't use the same route patterns. During the late spring and late fall, when people cannot go hunting anymore to get food, everyone depends on store-bought food.

The change to the food mail program is way too fast, in our opinion. There is not enough time in the transition period for the northerners to adjust and for the retailers to prepare for the changes. For example, there is no time to build the warehouses to stock up on dried goods. Also, in the homes of the people, there is no room to stock up on foods, for those who would be able to afford to stock up. Besides, that is not part of our culture. When you have more than enough of what you need, you share with others.

There was no time to inform the public of the changes to the food mail program. We are already seeing an increase in prices of up to 40% for some of the items, such as canned goods, dried pasta, and rice. These are essential staples for feeding large families. For example, in Kuujjuaq, where food is the cheapest of the 14 communities, two of these bottles would be $7.88.

We'd like to understand, too, if there is going to be another program that is going to cover these essential items.

Under Nutrition North Canada, we will be receiving funding through Health Canada for nutrition education purposes, which is going to reinforce our existing work on promoting healthier eating. However, with prices skyrocketing, we are worried that the public will struggle to access foods. When people are worried about having enough food to put on the table, we do not have the ideal conditions for trying to change food habits for better choices.

Thank you.

Nakurmiik.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much, Ms. Labranche.

Finally, last but certainly not least, we welcome Darius Elias, who is a member of the Yukon legislature.

It's great to have you here with us. Please go ahead with your presentation, and then we'll go to questions.

[Darius Elias, Member of the Legislative Assembly, Yukon Legislative Assembly]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

My name is Darius Elias. I'm a member of the Yukon Legislative Assembly, and I represent the fly-in-only community of Old Crow. We are the only community in the territory to benefit from the food mail subsidy program.

I want to begin by expressing my community's appreciation. The federal food subsidy program is an investment that means a great deal to my constituents.

My testimony to you today will focus on a united message from my constituents, the community of Old Crow, the Vuntut Gwitchin First Nation chief and council, and all 17 of the territory's members of the legislative assembly.

The Nutrition North Canada program objective to ensure that healthy foods are more accessible and affordable to our community of Old Crow will not be achieved should the program be implemented solely as a retail subsidy on April 1, 2011. My ask to you is that come April 1, 2011, the Nutrition North Canada food subsidy program include an exemption for our community. I ask that it have flexibility to maintain the personal shipping transportation subsidy from Whitehorse, our capital city, to Old Crow, for nutritious perishable food, non-food items, non-perishable foods, and essential non-food items, via Air North—Yukon's airline. I also ask to maintain a transportation subsidy that is administered by Air North, removing Canada Post from the picture altogether, with the airline being directly accountable to the Department of Indian Affairs.

Implicit in this ask is the ability for our community members to purchase affordable, healthy foods from wherever they choose, and to take those healthy choices to Air North, which provides the only and most direct transportation service route possible to get the healthy foods to dinner tables in Old Crow.

We feel this community-based solution is the best way to fulfill the Nutrition North Canada program objectives. It is my hope that our united message from the Yukon Territory will provide the necessary justification for a change in mandate, a program exemption, and flexibility to fully meet the Nutrition North Canada program objectives, thus helping to maintain our strong, vibrant, healthy Arctic community in Old Crow, Yukon.

We understand we need the best investment possible, and we believe we already have a workable system in the Yukon. With some fine-tuning, it can be more efficient. My constituents are wondering what the department of INAC is trying to fix in the Yukon. This level of overhaul in the food mail program is considered to be excessive and unnecessary by my constituents.

The Nutrition North Canada program, implemented as is, has the potential to negatively impact the physical and financial health of our families and the single mothers and elders who are on a fixed income. That is unacceptable. The Nutrition North Canada program is viewed as a step backwards and a potential disservice to our community.

I'll finish by submitting some prices of food in Old Crow and in Whitehorse. The prices in Old Crow are subsidized. In the Northern Store, the parent company to the North West Company--the distribution centre is in Winnipeg, Manitoba--a loaf of Wonder bread in Old Crow, as of last Saturday, was $6.19; in Whitehorse, it was $2.97. Two litres of milk in Old Crow are $9.59; in Whitehorse, it is $2.98. One dozen eggs in Old Crow is $6.19; in Whitehorse, it is $2.98. A five-pound bag of McIntosh apples--there are about ten or eleven apples in the bag--in Old Crow is $11.59; in Whitehorse, $4.49.

I thank you for the opportunity to submit my testimony to you today. Mahsi Cho.

I'll be willing to answer any and all questions that are presented to me on behalf of my constituents. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much, Mr. Elias, and all our witnesses, for your presentations and for sticking to the timeframe. You did a fantastic job.

Now we're going to proceed to questions from members. The first round is seven minutes. We'll begin with Mr. Bagnell from the Liberal Party.

Go ahead, Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

[Member speaks in Inuktitut]

It's great to have all of you here. As the critic for the Arctic, I try to push all your issues when you ask me. It's great to have Darius here from, as you can see, the farthest community from Ottawa here on the map, and it's great that the committee gave him access. As at least Darius and the committee members know, I've been fighting the bad changes in this program for over a year.

Among other things, Darius, you're asked to try to get special consideration for that situation that all parties in your legislature passed unanimously, as did the chief and council.

I was shocked at what we can see from the testimony today. People are being cut off, some items are ineligible, necessities are being taken off the list, and some communities aren't eligible. The prices are skyrocketing, so how do you know the savings are passed on? Some of those concerns are even a shock to me to hear today, over and above the fact that I've already been fighting changes that I think will hurt.

Darius, I want to ask you about two things. The rationale from the department seems a little weird in your situation. I don't understand how it works, actually, some of the other more complicated travel. It says here in the paper that the rationale for going with a direct subsidy--this is from the spokeswoman from INAC--is that it will “shorten the supply chain and reduce handling of fresh foods”.

Well, in Whitehorse they go into the grocery, they buy their stuff, they take it up to Air North, they put it on the plane, they get off the plane, and they take their food home. That's pretty short. Now they'll have to go to a retailer--some of whom have already refused to do this--and convince the retailer to sort out what goes under which category, to take it to the airline, and to negotiate a price for it. Obviously it could sit around the store forever. That's not any shorter.

In another article just last week, another rationale from the department was that with no oversight on the kinds of goods being shipped, there are two risks. There's no oversight. They're suggesting that the reason they had to change the program was that there's no oversight. Well, I happened to be in Air North on the weekend to pick up something else, and I saw the food guide. It's a very complicated list that tells exactly what is allowed on the plane or why it's not, so the department is not giving a true rationale.

It says if everyone went out and loaded up on goods each time, triggering a transportation subsidy, it could be destabilizing for local retailers. Well, the department's rationale for the program was to provide competition for local retailers, which would keep the prices down for people in the north. Now they're arguing against their own rationale. If everyone went outside.... The Inuit must be laughing at that one. They're suggesting that the people are just going to go from those northern communities to the grocery store at several thousand dollars every time and then cost the department a few cents to get their groceries.

Also, Darius, I heard that the caribou didn't make it past the village this year. That's where most of you got most of your food normally, which exacerbates any problems with this program.

[Darius Elias]

Absolutely it does, tenfold. Yes.

You gave me a lot of information there.

This is how it works in the Yukon. Residents of my community of Old Crow either phone their families in our capital city of Whitehorse or travel to the capital city. We don't get our food from Yellowknife. We don't get our food from Inuvik. We don't get our food from Dawson City. We don't get our food from Edmonton or Vancouver. For us to get healthy foods on our tables, Whitehorse is it.

I receive several calls throughout the month asking if I can shop for individuals, meaning I go pick it up, take it to Air North, and ensure it gets on the plane. We have a workable system in the territory. We want to stay as close to the status quo as possible. The elimination of Canada Post is fine.

Larry, your had a question about getting fruits and vegetables to the community. For the most part now, especially with people travelling from Whitehorse to Old Crow, that's a carry-on item. Just about every single one of my constituents has a bag filled with fruits--apples, bananas, pineapples, oranges, whatever--as their free carry-on item. That's the regular order of business now. It's care and control.

Let's say 20 stores in our capital city sign up for this retail subsidy. Why would the Department of Indian Affairs want 20 accountability structures and reporting structures versus the single one of Air North, the only company that flies into and out of Old Crow?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Could you try to keep your talking at a pace that's a bit slower, Mr. Elias, just for the interpretation? Thank you.

[Darius Elias]

Okay.

Again, with regard to the caribou, this is the second time in five years that they didn't migrate past the community of Old Crow when they were supposed to. As far as food security goes, 80% of my community's food intake is from the Porcupine caribou herd. Without them, we are an unhealthy community, case closed. So the access to nutritious perishable foods affects the day-to-day lives of my constituents. It just compounds this situation tenfold when the caribou don't come by.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You have roughly a minute and a quarter, Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Okay.

Somebody made a good point about how when they've taken a number of things off the list, as they have now--and I hadn't thought about this before with all my other criticisms--the retailers are going to have to have these big warehouses to store that extra stuff in, because in some of the Inuit communities in the north there's no shipping. They can go in only once a year. You have to have this huge storage space, and the cost of maintaining this retailer in the north is of course much more than it is in the south, so then the people are going to have to pay for that. Does anyone want to comment on that?

I'll ask my other question, just so I can get it in. For Ontario, the eight communities that aren't allowed are the Manitoba ones that are being kicked out. Are any of those in the fly-in north? I can't believe the program's going to help people if it's taking people off the eligibility list.