Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 14th, 2012

[Grant Trump]

They do, and we developed a curriculum for their program.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

When they were here, we looked at how many people they had trained. It was 68 since 2005, about ten a year, which isn't really a lot, considering the number of first nations out there. I was just kind of curious about that.

You say closer to home. Kenjgewin Teg, the education program on Manitoulin Island--I'm just trying to get some sense as to whether this would be a good program to deliver these closer to home.

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

Kenjgewin Teg.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

That's the one. I was just trying to get some sense as to whether that would be best. It's always best to deliver those programs as close to home as possible, and I understand that you said that you'd be willing to look into that.

Turning to the chief now, you spoke about the need to settle treaty claims as a precondition to moving ahead on development issues. I'm just wondering, do you feel that such a development would help focus the conversation we are engaged in with this committee today? Would this help pave the way to addressing the outstanding human rights issues that you indicated stand in the way as well?

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

Let me just say, in terms of the current policy or legislation, which is the First Nations Land Management Act, it requires first nations to acknowledge federal jurisdiction on reserve lands, which is, again, contrary to what we're just talking about, which is the treaty relationship and the concept of shared responsibilities. What first nations have said is we shouldn't have to relinquish jurisdiction, nor should a first nation be forced to surrender or release a treaty or traditional lands in the interests of economic sustainability. Again, it continues to speak to the immoral and coercive nature that's contrary to the federal fiduciary responsibilities.

What we've said is that there have to be measures that support the capacity of first nations to develop and use their lands effectively and sustainably—not by creating legislation or policy without first nation participation at all stages. It's not going to fix the problem if that continues; it's just going to worsen the situation. We have enough of our own lawyers and policy analysts who have a legal and policy background to assist in the development of these frameworks or policies on land management. So it doesn't make any sense to exclude us, as first nations leadership, in the kinds of decisions that are going to directly impact us at the community level.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I think we're seeing some of those issues coming more to the forefront with the Keystone project right now. We've got a government that's gone to China to push this forward, and yet we have first nations who are saying “Not on our watch and not on our land”. So the success of that project I think would be questionable at this point.

Land claims is something I wanted to touch base on. Can you maybe enlighten us: are you familiar with how many land claims are actually outstanding right now, just in Ontario?

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

I went to a recent Senate committee on additions to reserves, as an example, which speaks to some of the claims that are there. There are over 140 additions to reserves that need to be addressed.

What I said to the Senate committee was that we need to improve and streamline this federal additions-to-reserve policy and the processes that our first nations are having to endure.

I gave the example of Chief JimBob Marsden, from Alderville. He's had proposals in for additions to reserve since 1996—three excellent business propositions. The last one he put forward was a 25-year guaranteed contract with the Province of Ontario to deliver energy. They've got a FIT contract.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Chief. We've surpassed the time, but I'm sure somebody will follow up with that.

Mr. Payne, for five minutes.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Chair. I'll try to keep on schedule.

Thank you, witnesses, for coming today. You'll have to pardon me; I'm fighting this cold and I have a bad throat.

Mr. Trump, as part of our study we've heard at committee that land-use planning is certainly critical. ECO Canada offers a land-use planning program as part of their training programs.

I wonder if you could describe the land-use planning you have that offers a different approach from the planning programs that are not geared toward aboriginal learners.

[Grant Trump]

These particular programs were developed in conjunction with the aboriginal community, so there is a tremendous amount of aboriginal input into it, including elders who take part in all of the programming.

It's not just a matter of looking at the western scientific knowledge that is used in a regulatory framework for developing land-use plans and how that fits together. It is a direct incorporation of traditional ecological knowledge, as well, as part of the whole process, and how a lot of those other non-western scientific activities fit into the development of a land-use plan that's much more compatible with the community.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Could you maybe describe some of those planning issues that are unique to first nations and how you've incorporated that into your program?

[Grant Trump]

I don't have that direct knowledge with respect to specifics, but I can tell you that our staff spends a tremendous amount of time bringing together focus groups from across the country. We'll bring together a variety of aboriginal individuals and college and university faculty and government officials who are involved in the land-use plan, and we'll document those competencies, skills, and knowledge that are required. Then we'll go back to take a very special look and ask what traditional ecological knowledge would fit into those particular areas that may not be tied up in the traditional way. Once we have all of those, we then go to a larger focus group across the country to ensure it is compatible and not inconsistent nationally.

Once that is done, the very next step in our process is that we will actually develop the curriculum. We document the curriculum and then put it out for comment and review. That curriculum goes through a validation process.

We all know that change is the rule and not the exception, and as regulatory requirements change and a variety of new technologies come in for looking at land-use planning and other areas, then we find changes. What we end up doing, then, is that about every four or five years we revisit that curriculum. We take a look at it to make certain it is still current and still meets the requirements.

Keep in mind that we don't just prepare student manuals for this, or curriculum that's used by the students. We actually prepare instructors' manuals as well, so the instructors across the country or the people who are giving the program are all singing from the same song sheet, if you will. As well, we have common powerpoint presentations and so on. Again, these are constantly updated, as we see there is a need for change within the community.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Does that mean you'll be going back into focus groups again?

[Grant Trump]

Absolutely.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

So when you talk about those focus groups right across the country, you are taking into account all of the differences between each first nation?

[Grant Trump]

That's correct. We look at the common elements that are in there, and then the instructor's manual would give specific elements, if there are specific elements for different regions of the country.

We are a large country geographically, but we're relatively small economically. As a result, looking at the different climatic conditions within the country as well is important in land management and land use.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Okay.

Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Yes, you have 40 seconds.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Okay, quickly, I'm just following up with one of my colleagues' questions in terms of when someone receives training they're often approached by other municipalities and they go off other ways. Do you have any advice for first nations communities as to how they might retain the services of first nations people who are trained by you, so that they stay in their communities?

[Grant Trump]

That retention strategy is not dissimilar on first nations from what it is in non-first-nations communities. Our research shows right now that the average young Canadian spends on average 2.2 years in an environmental job in Canada. This is not only in aboriginal communities or in first nations, it is certainly across the country. Retention strategies are going to have to be developed, but I would suggest to you that moving is not always bad.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Trump.

Mr. Genest-Jourdain, for five minutes.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Good afternoon.

Mr. Trump, I listened carefully to what you said and I read your document. Although the environment was the more constant theme throughout your remarks, I did notice that the programs delivered or sponsored by your organization are often intended to meet the industry's needs. Is training available to first nations and aboriginal communities with respect to the adverse effects of a possible mining operation or the future use of their land resources, before any development or exploration takes place?

[Grant Trump]

Certainly not all energy extraction or any sort of industrial activity is going to have positive effects on the environment and can be mitigated. So we indeed do look at those particular activities. We talk to the communities. An awful lot of the activities that you will see within our training programs are looking at cleaning up our past sins. These past sins have created very large projects for the Government of Canada and for private sector companies and they've created tremendous potential environmental effects within aboriginal communities.

I believe we're talking about two entirely separate things here. We're talking about mitigating for new projects and ensuring that those new projects have minimal environmental effect and are dealt with in a positive manner, and that the aboriginal people, who are the people most affected by this, have the awareness to be able to develop those particular programs or to bring a stop to them should they see that those projects are not meeting environmental responsibilities or their concerns. Then we have a whole other set of environmental impacts that are past sins, if you will, and looking at how we can do that contaminated site cleanup activity, which is going to go on for at least the next generation or perhaps two generations and could be a tremendous source of revenue and employment within the communities.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

In your remarks, you said that CEGEPs offered programs sponsored by your organization. That means you are active in Quebec right now.

[Grant Trump]

We are indeed. We've only offered one program in Quebec to date. Our organization actually accredits university, college, technical institute, and CEGEP programs. We send accreditation teams in and accredit them to national occupational standards. We have already completed one CEGEP in Quebec and I believe we have two more on the list for next year.