Evidence of meeting #33 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was application.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
Anything is possible, of course. You'd hope that the individuals who start to make application after 25 years have gotten the message of the enormous crime they have committed and the number of victims they have created.
So, yes, it's the hope of everyone that even minor offenders get the message that this is not the way to live your life.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
If I understand correctly, you are pleased to point out that, of all the people who were released on parole, only one committed a serious crime, which was not a murder, but armed robbery.
You are aware of that.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
I'm sure you've got the details of whatever case you're referring to, Monsieur Ménard. But you're right, you make a good point, that sometimes people who get released can commit other crimes. But that's the chance you take any time.
I mean, let's be fair. Anytime somebody gets paroled, there is always that possibility that the person may commit another crime. Those are the factors that are weighed by the parole board in every case, whether it's an individual who's applying to get out after a murder, or indeed others.
That's always a possibility, and I thank you for raising that.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
It was actually the Canadian Bar Association that told us that, of all those who were able to benefit from the provision that you now want to limit, only one person had committed another serious crime, an armed robbery. So that cannot justify your haste to implement this measure as quickly as possible.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
No. What motivates me, and what has always motivated me in this particular area, are my discussions with the victims. The individuals, who have been created victims by the murder of one of their loved ones, are unanimous when they tell me how terrible the process is that they go through when the 15 years rolls around and they have to then, in many cases, relive the experience.
It certainly reduces the victimization, and in the end, we all have a stake in that. That is one of the driving forces of this particular piece of legislation. We are going to reduce that victimization for people who become victims in the future. And for people who have been victims in the past—you can see the new procedures we have—this will at least give them a little more certainty as to when and where they may have to relive those experiences.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
It happens when I go across the country, Mr. Ménard.
I've been minister for four years, and every time I've been in one of the major cities, I make a point of hearing from victims. They write to me. They e-mail me. They stop me in the streets. I'm sure you have probably heard from some of these victims. But they are unanimous that when this 15 years rolls around and these individuals have this faint hope clause, they tell me they become victimized again. My heart goes out to them, and I hope yours does as well.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Mr. Minister, could you tell me approximately how many victims have you met? Dozens, hundreds, around 50?
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
No, but, if you only had met with six or seven, you would tell us, wouldn't you?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
Again, it's when I've been to different cities and whenever this bill comes up. I'm sure you probably hear from some of them yourselves on this.
You've never heard from any victims? I can tell you something, Monsieur Ménard—
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Brian Murphy
Excuse me, Mr. Ménard, but you have to give the minister a chance to finish his answer.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Yes, but I don't want him to twist my words. I am not twisting his words.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
The point is that sometimes you get somebody like Sharon Rosenfeldt, who represents a lot of the victims. In the Clifford Olson case, there were 11 different families touched by that. She made the point to me that, “When I'm speaking with you, Minister, I'm representing all these other individuals.” You may find the same experience, that when you talk to some of these victims, many of whom have become involved in making sure there are changes made to the law, they represent other people who may not necessarily be there.
Thank you for the question.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
You often bring up the fact that the public wants to limit these occasions. You are not happy that the decisions we are talking about are not made by judges but by juries. Should that not be an indicator that these decisions are socially acceptable to the public?
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
Again, in the case of first-degree murder, for instance, juries do make that decision and impose life sentences on individuals for whom.... Again, it's said in open court that they're ineligible for parole for 25 years. But what we all know about this particular clause in federal legislation is, as I say, that it's a loophole for lifers.
So, yes, there is this. Again, juries do what they are instructed to do and weigh the guilt or innocence of an individual. You're quite correct that in first-degree murder cases they are prepared to impose life sentences with no eligibility for parole for 25 years for an individual.
Again, this is something that's been part of our law now for quite some time, and this is what we want to change.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Brian Murphy
We're going to continue now with Mr. Comartin for seven minutes.
I remind questioners and witnesses to respect each other's time. It's very difficult for the translators to translate two voices at the same time.
Mr. Comartin, for seven minutes.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
I assume those comments weren't directed specifically at me, Mr. Chair, because I'm always so mild and sedate in my questioning.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
I'll thank you anyway, Mr. Chair, and you, Mr. Minister, for being here, along with the officials.
Let me just pursue this. Your last answer, of course, is accurate, that at the time the jury convicts the person and the sentence is imposed, they're looking at the 25 years as the penalty. Actually, it's life, so it's much longer than that.
I don't know if you know, Mr. Minister, that the length of time the average convicted murderer in Canada spends in custody is 28.5 years. It's not 15 or even 25, and in fact—
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
I hope I didn't confuse things when I said that.
You don't necessarily get out at 25 years; you could be there longer. There is no question about that.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Okay.
But the other point with regard to the juries it that it's the jury in that same community, if it gets that far, that is going to make the decision. It's the same community and judges from the same area who are going to be trying the issue of whether the person is going to be able to apply for early release, because of course they don't all get early release when they go on to the parole board.
In fact, there are cases that we received from Mr. Head—which this committee didn't hear about last time because one of your colleagues held up this material and it never came before committee—showing that out of the 144 cases granted the ability to apply for parole by juries, only 134 of them were in fact granted parole.
But it's the jury that makes the decision.