Justice Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2010

Evidence of meeting #33 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was application.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Bill S-6, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act

Bill C-389, An Act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Criminal Code (gender identity and gender expression)

Committee Business

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Giokas Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Catherine Kane Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

To be honest, I hope I was as clear as possible. With an individual, in your example, who has already been convicted, these new procedures would apply. They would have a 90-day window at the 15-year mark, and then after that, five years. I want to be very clear about that.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

You were clear.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Those are for people already in the system.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

You were clear about that, but you weren't clear about the retrospective impact on those who are currently serving life sentences. There is a retroactive impact. Procedurally, this removes their ability to apply for parole in any period except the 90-day window.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

It's not retroactive; it's retrospective, in the sense that--

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Retrospective, if you will.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

--it changes the procedures, but their sentence is the same—life imprisonment with no eligibility for parole for 25 years. The faint hope clause will be available to them, but there is a change in the procedures.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

You've referred to the confusion of the public in relation to people who receive life sentences. You could have proposed a bill that would actually impose a life sentence—you're in jail until you die—but you didn't do that. This bill affects only the 10-year window that follows the 15-year period and going up to the 25-year period. Is that right?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

It's very specific.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

I guess you're agreeing with me.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Yes, I agree with you.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Don't be afraid to commit here; you're the government.

So it only covers the 10-year period--

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Are you committing to life sentences with no eligibility for parole? That's where you're going, Mr. Lee.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

I'm encouraging you to go for it for the purpose of clarity.

Is it also true that this bill--I'm stabbing in the dark here--doesn't affect anyone convicted of second-degree murder?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Yes, it does.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

And if they're sentenced to life and 15...does it affect them?

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

They would become eligible for parole after 15 years.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

So this bill doesn't affect them.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Just to be clear, because you asked me to be clear, if you were convicted of second-degree murder, the judge could impose parole ineligibility up to 25 years, in which case you would be eligible for the faint hope clause.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Okay, but it would still be a life sentence.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

You're right that the sentence could be 10 years until parole eligibility, and again....

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

I have to talk about Clifford Olson again. Once Clifford Olson has served 25 years--he may have served 25 years already--this bill doesn't affect him at all. Whether this bill is passed or not, Clifford Olson will still have the ability to apply for parole any time he feels like it. Is that correct?

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

That's correct. Exactly.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Okay. Well, it's rather pointless to refer to Clifford Olson as an example, or his victims, if this bill doesn't impact him at all.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

The example I used was Sharon Rosenfeldt, who recognizes that this does not affect her own particular case, but she is prepared to join with me to help future victims. That is why I raised that question. I wasn't suggesting that his sentence was being changed.