Justice Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2010

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

To be honest, I hope I was as clear as possible. With an individual, in your example, who has already been convicted, these new procedures would apply. They would have a 90-day window at the 15-year mark, and then after that, five years. I want to be very clear about that.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

You were clear.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Those are for people already in the system.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

You were clear about that, but you weren't clear about the retrospective impact on those who are currently serving life sentences. There is a retroactive impact. Procedurally, this removes their ability to apply for parole in any period except the 90-day window.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It's not retroactive; it's retrospective, in the sense that--

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Retrospective, if you will.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

--it changes the procedures, but their sentence is the same—life imprisonment with no eligibility for parole for 25 years. The faint hope clause will be available to them, but there is a change in the procedures.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

You've referred to the confusion of the public in relation to people who receive life sentences. You could have proposed a bill that would actually impose a life sentence—you're in jail until you die—but you didn't do that. This bill affects only the 10-year window that follows the 15-year period and going up to the 25-year period. Is that right?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It's very specific.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I guess you're agreeing with me.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Yes, I agree with you.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Don't be afraid to commit here; you're the government.

So it only covers the 10-year period--

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Are you committing to life sentences with no eligibility for parole? That's where you're going, Mr. Lee.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I'm encouraging you to go for it for the purpose of clarity.

Is it also true that this bill--I'm stabbing in the dark here--doesn't affect anyone convicted of second-degree murder?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Yes, it does.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

And if they're sentenced to life and 15...does it affect them?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

They would become eligible for parole after 15 years.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

So this bill doesn't affect them.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Just to be clear, because you asked me to be clear, if you were convicted of second-degree murder, the judge could impose parole ineligibility up to 25 years, in which case you would be eligible for the faint hope clause.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Okay, but it would still be a life sentence.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

You're right that the sentence could be 10 years until parole eligibility, and again....

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I have to talk about Clifford Olson again. Once Clifford Olson has served 25 years--he may have served 25 years already--this bill doesn't affect him at all. Whether this bill is passed or not, Clifford Olson will still have the ability to apply for parole any time he feels like it. Is that correct?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

That's correct. Exactly.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Okay. Well, it's rather pointless to refer to Clifford Olson as an example, or his victims, if this bill doesn't impact him at all.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

The example I used was Sharon Rosenfeldt, who recognizes that this does not affect her own particular case, but she is prepared to join with me to help future victims. That is why I raised that question. I wasn't suggesting that his sentence was being changed.