Evidence of meeting #14 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-9.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Breese  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Wells  Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Ali  Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON

The instructions he gives you are not protected, so I disagree with you on that interpretation. The minister, obviously, is probably following this because he had a very uncomfortable week in the House of Commons, flip-flopping, not being clear with Canadians, backing himself into a corner and trying to appease the Bloc Québécois, which made it abundantly clear that if he pulls out of this secret agreement, don't expect them to support any provision of Bill C-9. That panicked the minister, the Prime Minister and these four members of the justice committee, so that now they're playing coy, saying they want to hear from the committee.

Well, to my colleague Mr. Lawton's point, if that were truly genuine, they wouldn't have cancelled meetings when we had witnesses lined up. Perhaps we could have explored, by hearing from stakeholders, whether or not this is an appropriate removal. That was taken away from us. That was stripped from the justice committee, which I find deplorable.

It's clear that the Liberals will do whatever it takes to pass this amendment, even though it was never their idea or their intention two years ago and during hearings with numerous witnesses, until it became abundantly clear that they would be going into a winter break without the passage of Minister Fraser's signature piece of criminal legislation. It's the only piece of criminal legislation that he brought forward, since the election almost eight months ago, to be studied at committee. I want to put that on the record.

I also have the utmost respect for my colleague Monsieur Fortin. Generally, we align very well on legal issues, but I take exception to his interpretation of the Charkaoui case out of Quebec. I believe his words were to the effect that the Crown prosecution service in Quebec had come to the conclusion that the religious defence would not apply in that particular case. That is wrong, and I'll get into that in a moment.

I want to clarify something that I think is important. Bill C-9, as drafted, references the defences under proposed subsection 319(2.2). The language in BQ-3 is about removing religious exemptions. This is not an exemption; this is a stated legal defence. There is a difference between an exemption and a legal defence. Just to be accurate, our nomenclature throughout this debate, however long it may be, should be referring to the “defence” as opposed to “exemption”.

I have a lot of respect for the folks at the Canadian Constitution Foundation, and in particular Christine Van Geyn, who wrote a piece not too long ago in the National Post when this secret deal between the Bloc and the Liberals became public through leaked Liberal sources. I'm going to read various portions of that article into the record at this time, but I'll start off specifically with the religious defence. The title is quite interesting: “Changes to Bill C-9 aren't combating hate—they're criminalizing faith”. It states:

Bill C-9, the Carney government's combating hate act, would expand criminal prohibitions on expression and increase penalties for speech offences, including online speech. Now, the bill may also gut the defence that protects good-faith religious opinion or speech rooted in religious texts.

As Mr. Lawton indicated:

Throughout the...hearings, Bloc MPs fixated on this defence. Their central example, repeated to nearly every witness, was a group prayer delivered by controversial imam Adil Charkaoui at a Quebec pro-Palestinian rally in 2023. In that prayer, [he] asked God to “kill the enemies of the people of Gaza” and take care of the “Zionist aggressors.”

Those comments were rightly condemned. They are grotesque. Complaints about them were investigated, and the RCMP prepared a report. It was reviewed by three Crown prosecutors, who concluded that no charges were warranted.

As Quebec's director of criminal and penal prosecutions put it, “The evidence does not establish beyond a reasonable doubt that the words spoken constitute incitement to hatred against an identifiable group” under Sec. 319 of the Criminal Code.

One may argue that “Zionist” was just code for “Jews.” One may also believe that praying for death is morally abhorrent. But the decision not to charge Charkaoui turned on the basic threshold of incitement to hatred, not on the religious defence.

And even if it had involved the defence, one inflammatory prayer at a political rally is not a justification for dismantling a safeguard that protects millions of Canadians from state intrusion into matters of faith.

The religious defence has also been essential to the constitutionality of the hate-speech prohibition itself.

We've all talked about the Keegstra decision at numerous times throughout this particular study, and there she says, “the Supreme Court wrote that the offence is a minimal impairment on the right to freedom of expression, in part because of ‘the presence of the Sec. 319(3) defences.’” That includes the religious defence.

She went on:

The courts upheld the law because the religious exemption exists. Remove it, and the constitutional floor collapses.

But even beyond constitutional risk, removing the defence is a profound moral and civil liberties mistake. We should not want, let alone empower, prosecutors to criminalize any form of prayer.

Religious texts across traditions contain pleas for justice against enemies, metaphors for divine retribution and expressions of anguish, symbolism and cosmic struggle. This is not the realm of the police. If the state begins parsing Psalms or Hadiths line-by-line in a courtroom, then we have forgotten why the Charter exists at all.

In practice, the defence is already exceedingly narrow. It has rarely been invoked and, based on my case law search, has never succeeded. Courts have also rejected attempts to cloak hateful speech in religious [example].

In the case of Regina v. Harding, she notes:

...the Court of Appeal for Ontario affirmed a lower court's finding that the defence does not shield speech that wilfully promotes hatred merely because it is embedded with religious language, because then “religious opinion could be used with impunity as a Trojan horse to carry the intended message of hate forbidden by Sec. 319.”

Religious expression is messy, symbolic and deeply human. It concerns the nature of justice, suffering, good and evil—the most intimate dimensions of identity and conscience. These are precisely the areas where the criminal law must not tread. We do not want the government parsing religious texts, or religious speech, especially given that most of our political leaders are absolutely ignorant of religion, including, in some cases, their own religion.

Mr. Lawton got into this.

For example, in a shocking display at the justice committee, Liberal committee chair Marc Miller claimed to Derek Ross, executive director of the Christian Legal Fellowship, that portions of the Bible are “hateful.” Miller then doubled down on X, writing, “I say this, in particular because I am a Christian,” which is in itself mind-boggling.

It's dangerous for politicians to believe they can use statutes to sanitize scripture they don’t even properly understand. Criminal law is the state’s most violent instrument.

Let that sink in.

It should not be swung at the human soul.

The Bible is the most banned book in history, precisely because it is powerful and points to an authority beyond the reach of government. A government that fears religious speech is not fighting extremism—it's fighting competition.

What better way is there to summarize the actions of this Liberal government over the last long 10 years?

The proposed amendment to Bill C-9 would take Canada down a dark path. We should never have criminalized belief in the first place. Strip away the religious defence, and Canada will not be—

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON

—combating hate, it will be criminalizing faith. The defence must be maintained.

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Mr. Chair, I don’t know what the rule is, but I wonder if our Conservative colleagues, for whom I have a great deal of respect, are going to occupy this entire side of the table. I am here and I need space to work. The committee has four Conservative members in principle, but there are seven of them here. I think those who are not official members of the committee could sit elsewhere around the table. I understand that my amendment does not suit the Conservatives, but I think the least they could do out of respect would be to let me work.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Is your objection to them sitting at the table or to the comments he was making, Mr. Fortin?

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

I ask that you do what is necessary to allow me to work. You could ask our colleagues to sit elsewhere around the table, rather than on my documents.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I mean, the members—

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Isn’t there a rule about the number of people? If there are 100 Conservative MPs who want to sit around the table, we’re obviously going to run out of space.

Mr. Genuis, I agree that you can be here, but you're not obliged to sit on my files, and neither is your colleague.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

We don’t have much space.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I think maybe—

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

I understand, but I am a member of the committee and I have to work.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Okay. Gentlemen, members of Parliament are entitled to sit around this table, but I would request that those of you sitting near Mr. Fortin show him some courtesy and respect and allow him some space so he has room to do what he needs to do as a regular member of the committee.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Jacob Mantle Conservative York—Durham, ON

On a point of order, if I may, Mr. Chair, as I feel that some of these comments were directed to me, I made no comments to the member. I sat down.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I don't think—

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Jacob Mantle Conservative York—Durham, ON

If I might finish.... As you said, members are entitled to sit here. How many spaces does my colleague need for his work, if he could establish that? This was an open chair. I don't see the problem with sitting in an open chair.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Is that really the discussion you want to have? Okay.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Jacob Mantle Conservative York—Durham, ON

I don't. I didn't raise this discussion.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I was hoping we could deal with this in a professional and courteous manner. Technically, yes, members are allowed to sit around the table. If you want to sit beside Mr. Fortin, you're free to do so. There are also chairs on the other side of the table, and you're more than welcome to sit over there or to sit elsewhere. All I'm asking you to do, sir, as a courtesy, is to be courteous to Mr. Fortin if he needs a bit more elbow room. We're going to be here for a long time.

You can argue this nonsense all you want, but—

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Jacob Mantle Conservative York—Durham, ON

I'm not going to argue it. I just reject the premise that it's being uncourteous to sit in an open chair.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I didn't suggest that you were being uncourteous. I just suggested that we respect Mr. Fortin's wishes. I'm going to end it there. This conversation is ridiculous, frankly.

Mr. Brock, you have the floor.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON

Thank you. I'm prepared to cede my time at this time, Chair.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you.

That takes us to Mr. Baber.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Now we truly get to see how terrible this bill is. If this is the price the Liberals had to pay in order to get this bill passed, then they truly understand how difficult it was, and for good reason. This bill has received an extraordinary amount of attention, and it will continue to, particularly because of what's happening right now.

I really don't get it. We had such interest in this bill. We had so many witnesses who wanted to speak to it. We had two meetings cancelled by the Liberals at a time when we could have heard from witnesses. Fast-forward, and we're making a fundamental change to a key section of the Criminal Code without any testimony. Surely you can't tell me this is an appropriate process. I would ask my Liberal friends to please let us hear from witnesses on this issue. This has a major impact on religious communities and on potentially a lot of Canadians.

I want to ask my friend Monsieur Fortin, with whom I have developed a good working relationship....

Could I kindly ask MP Genuis to lean back a bit in his chair? Thank you.

Monsieur Fortin, I heard you say in your remarks that you're bringing up this amendment because of Adil Charkaoui and his pronouncements in Montreal. Did I hear you correctly?

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

No. I said it's an example—a good example.

7:25 p.m.

Conservative

Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON

You say that it's a good example. I would suggest to you respectfully that it's not a good example. Again, I very much respect your professionalism, I respect your experience and I respect you as a lawyer. I think we should be entitled to ask each other to be professionally frank.

I'm going to refer you to a CBC article. I think the other side likes the CBC. This was posted on May 17, 2024: “Crown won't file charges over controversial pro-Palestinian speeches in Montreal”. I will endeavour to send you a copy of this article, Mr. Fortin.

If we scroll through it, the article states:

The Crown said the statements analyzed must target an identifiable group as defined in section 318(4), namely: “Any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, national or ethnic origin, age, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression or mental or physical disability.”

Under the circumstances, the provisions of the Criminal Code do not allow for charges to be laid in this case, the Crown says.

“The DPCP concludes that the evidence does not establish beyond a reasonable doubt that the words spoken constitute incitement to hatred against an identifiable group within the meaning of the applicable Criminal Code provision, given the interpretation thereof by the courts,” the Crown's news release says.

Clearly, the Crown said publicly that it's not the religious defence that saved Mr. Charkaoui, but that the elements of the offence were not met in that he did not call for the killing of an identifiable group of people.

If the Bloc truly believes in this amendment, why do they need to be so aggressive on the facts they tender that do not bear out, Mr. Fortin, with respect? The statement put forth by the Attorney General himself on page 2, paragraph 4, states, “In nearly twenty years of this defence existing, we are not aware of a single case in which courts relied on section 319(3)(b) to acquit an accused.”

This has never happened. We're dealing with a defence that has never been successfully argued. The challenge with it, as is the challenge with all hate law reform, is that when we lower the threshold and start going down the road of criminalizing more and more speech, we create a chill on free speech, because we may place folks in a situation where they do not know if they are offending the law or not. They may be at legal jeopardy.

When Mr. Miller says that portions of the Bible are hateful, what am I to make of that? How do I know what would be hateful? Maybe one of them might be more hateful than another.

The point of this discussion is not even the fact that religious people may face prosecution because this defence does not exist. The point is that removing this defence in and of its own may chill religious speech. We should not be entering a zone where folks may feel they may be in legal jeopardy.

I've learned a lot since I was elected in April 2025. I previously served as a provincial member. There is no Bloc Québécois party in Ontario's Parliament. I've learned a lot about our country, about bilingualism, about French Canada, about our conventions and about your culture. We respect each other immensely, and I respect your proposition to honour the laicity of the state. I get it. However, laicity of the state is laicity of the state, not of everyday Canadians, and to force them to potentially fear quoting religious scripture is definitely not something that states should engage in.

I'm also offended by what's happening, because when I read the Criminal Code, the problem, respectfully, Mr. Fortin, that you're trying to solve and that the Liberals are suggesting they're helping you solve does not exist. Please look at the Criminal Code. Section 318 is the one dealing with advocating genocide. The example being used in this room and in the House is someone calling for genocide, someone calling to exterminate the Jews or anyone else, but the religious defence does not apply to section 318. It's not found in the section.

If you advocate genocide, there's a definition of genocide, there's the consent of the Attorney General and there's a definition of an identifiable group, but there's no defence. The situation we're discussing does not arise.

Let's go to section 319. It's the hate speech section. We have two operative subsections in section 319. We have the first one, where someone “incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace”. All right, so we have an identifiable group and a breach of the peace. The second one, the wilful promotion of hatred, is the classic one we're familiar with: “Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group” of people.

Then if you go to the defence subsection, subsection 319(3), you see that the defences listed in subsection (3), including the religious defence, which the amendment proposes to remove, only apply to the wilful promotion of hatred. Subsection 319(3) reads, “No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)”.

Please read subsection 319(3). It only applies to subsection (2), and that is about the wilful promotion of hatred. It does not apply to the first subsection, which is about the public incitement of hatred.

I'm so tired of there being no nuance. Sometimes I feel like there is no nuance in this place. For goodness' sake, look at how much money we're spending here, and there is no professional thought.

I've always felt that we have to inject a bit more professionalism into politics. We don't need a fancy lawyer. We need someone to read the section. The problem you're trying to solve does not exist. Someone cannot defend themselves with a religious exemption after inciting hatred or inciting violence, and I would ask everyone to please stop saying that.

I will have further submissions down the road. I implore you to please not do this.

Thank you.