Evidence of meeting #14 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-9.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Breese  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Wells  Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Ali  Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

9:05 p.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

To start with, I will read the amendment: “Nothing in this section is to be interpreted or applied so as to interfere with the freedom of expression or the freedom of religion.” We all know that freedom of religion and freedom of expression cannot be attacked. Canadians must remain free to worship, teach and share scripture without fear of charges. Sacred texts are foundational to our cultural identity. Criminalizing them is unacceptable.

What my colleague has mentioned is that it seems there is a political deal. A report confirmed that the Liberal government struck a deal with the Bloc Québécois to secure support for Bill C-9 by removing this safeguard. As real-world consequences, pastors, imams or priests could face charges for teaching traditional doctrine.

This amendment goes to the very heart of what Parliament is supposed to do: protect Canadians while preserving their fundamental freedoms. It should not be controversial and it should not be partisan, yet here we are debating this issue. We all know that we don't want hate crimes or any other crime; we are against those.

It is necessary to explicitly protect freedoms that are already guaranteed under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Conservatives believe this language is essential, not optional.

I will tell you that this amendment is not about fighting hate; it's about criminalizing scripture. We have to deal with it. Canada has a free, democratic society. That freedom does not flow from government permission. It flows from the inherent rights of individuals, rights the state is obligated to respect, not redefine or weaken through vague legislation.

Freedom of expression and freedom of religion are not—

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I'm sorry, Mr. Gill. I'm going to interrupt you. Your own colleagues don't seem too interested in listening to you, because they're all talking.

I'm going to ask people to keep the comments down in the back. Mr. Gill has the floor.

9:10 p.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

Freedom of expression and freedom of religion are not abstract legal concepts, but lived realities for millions of Canadians: people of faith, cultural communities, newcomers, parents, teachers and anyone who dares to express an opinion that may not align with the views of the government of the day.

Clause 4, as it is currently drafted, expands Criminal Code provisions around mischief and intimidation relating to places of worship, schools and community institutions. Conservatives agree that vandalism, threats, harassment and violence against these spaces are reprehensible acts that must be punished—there is no disagreement there—but the serious concern is that poorly defined language combined with an activist enforcement culture can lead to unintended consequences. When it comes to criminal law, unintended consequences are not academic; they affect real lives.

Religious leaders are already under pressure to navigate complex social issues. These amendments add the risk of criminal charges simply for quoting scriptures. Sermons and Friday prayers could be scrutinized by prosecutors. This is unprecedented in Canadian history. Parents and families are worried that if they teach their children scriptures at home, they could be accused of promoting hatred. Family traditions of reading sacred texts together could be chilled by fear of legal consequences.

There is also the digital age concern. The bill's public display provisions could extend to digital platforms. Posting scriptures on Facebook, YouTube or TikTok could be treated as a criminal act. Faith communities rely on livestreams and online teachings. This amendment risks criminalizing those practices.

The Charter of Rights guarantees the freedoms of conscience, religion, thought, belief, opinion and expression. Removing the exemption undermines these rights and invites constitutional challenges. Canadians should not have to fight in court to defend their right to read scriptures. This amendment ensures that clause 4 cannot be interpreted in a way that chills speeches, punishes beliefs or interferes with religious practice that is peaceful and lawful.

Canadians are already uneasy. They see professors being disciplined for unpopular opinions. They see faith leaders being dragged into legal battles. They see protesters being treated differently, depending on whether their message aligns with the government's narrative.

This amendment says that plainly expressing beliefs, even strong and uncomfortable ones, is not a crime. Preaching a faith-based view is not criminal mischief. Peaceful protest is not intimidation. Public debate is not hatred. If the government truly believes that these things are necessary, I would say that we, as legislators, need to think about all of them.

The language in this bill as it is currently drafted risks blurring the line between criminal conduct and lawful expression. Canadians are increasingly worried that expressing sincerely held beliefs, whether they are religious, moral or cultural, could be interpreted by the state as harmful or criminal—

Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC

On a point of order, the member's extended remarks risk mis-characterizing the amendment.

9:15 p.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

Can you say that again?

Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC

How is...? I want to say something like expressing your—

An hon. member

It's your point of order.

9:15 p.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

You have to make the point of order.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Whoa. Hold on.

I will not tolerate people mocking somebody's ability to speak a language at this committee.

9:15 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON

That is not what happened.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Mr. Chang.

9:15 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Speaking of privilege, are you going to rule on the previous question of privilege?

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I've taken it under advisement. You can keep asking until you're blue in the face. You'll get an answer at the appropriate time.

Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC

This member's remark was not speaking to the amendment—not at all.

9:15 p.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

Is that a point of order?

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

The point of order is relevance.

Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC

Yes, it's about relevance.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you, Mr. Chang.

Again, this is a theme that's come up over and over again tonight. Could we try to stay focused?

You started out well, Mr. Gill, by saying what the amendment was and that's what you were going to be talking about, which is more than I can say about some other people who have spoken tonight. If we could try to keep it focused, we'd all be grateful. Thank you.

9:15 p.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

I'll take your advice into consideration, but let me finish.

My other colleagues can speak as well. I would say one thing. Legislation does not exist in a vacuum. It operates within a culture, and right now that culture is increasingly hostile to dissent. That is why we as Conservatives insist on clarity. When laws are vague, enforcement becomes subjective. When enforcement becomes subjective, freedoms become conditional.

This amendment says plainly that expressing beliefs, even strong ones and even uncomfortable ones, is not a crime. Preaching a faith-based view is not criminal mischief. Peaceful protest is not intimidation.

I cede my time now. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you very much, Mr. Gill.

Mr. Bexte.

9:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you, Chair, very much. I appreciate the opportunity to speak. I'm not a regular member of this committee, but am nonetheless a member, and I appreciate the ability to exercise my privilege.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you for joining us.

9:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you to the witnesses for bearing this out tonight and keeping your attention rapt. I'll do some work here to see if we can engage you in this process.

I want to make very clear that I want to talk to the committee today about Bill C-9, which, if passed with BQ-3, would strip away long-standing protections for freedom of expression and religious liberty in this country. This goes directly to supporting the amendment by my colleague Andrew Lawton, the latest amendment.

This bill represents the most significant assault on Canadians' ability to speak openly about their faith perhaps since the charter was written. It comes in an especially telling moment. I can't tell if this is ironic, disturbing, deliberate or accidental, but during the Advent season, at a time when Christians reflect on scripture, hope and the coming of Christ, we witnessed the astonishing spectacle of the previous Liberal justice committee chair declare that parts of the Bible and the Torah contain clear hatred.

He singled out Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Romans, and that was not a random commentator. It was the individual responsible for overseeing the justice committee. Just last week, he was promoted to cabinet as the minister responsible for Canadian identity and culture. Only this Liberal government would reward someone for asserting, essentially, that God himself is hateful. I would encourage the new minister to revisit the preamble of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which affirms that Canada is founded upon principles recognizing the supremacy of God and the rule of law, as well as our national anthem, which asks that God keep our land glorious and free.

The Liberal government frequently boasts about defending the charter, yet they conveniently ignore the charter's protections of the freedoms of religion and expression, as well as its own explicit acknowledgement of God in the preamble, as in the national anthem. This hypocrisy is the backdrop of everything in Bill C-9.

At the centre of this bill is a political deal between the Liberals and the Bloc Québécois. In exchange for the Bloc's support, the Liberals have agreed to eliminate long-standing Criminal Code safeguards—namely paragraphs 319(3)(b) and 319(3.1)(b)—that protect Canadians from being prosecuted for expressing, in good faith, an argument on a religious subject or a belief rooted in sacred text.

These protections are not loopholes. They are constitutional guardrails upheld by the Supreme Court that ensure Canada's hate speech provisions remain consistent within the charter. My colleagues before me have gone to great lengths, doing so with great eloquence—far more eloquence than I could muster—to express this point quite poignantly.

The Liberals and the Bloc want to tear these protections out by the roots. The Bloc justifies this change by referencing a single case. Montreal imam Adil Charkaoui, in 2023, used a prayer to call for the extermination of Jews. This is abhorrent. His statements were vile and deeply anti-Semitic. The simple truth is that what he said was already illegal. It was illegal under section 318 for advocating genocide and under subsection 319(1) for the public incitement of hatred.

This is another example of the government failing to act and failing to execute on laws that already exist on the books for the protection of Canadians and their fundamental rights. The religious text defence does not apply to either provision, and there is absolutely no evidence that prosecutors declined to charge him because of that defence. The only reason he was not charged is that authorities failed to enforce the law. This is unbelievable.

Instead of fixing that enforcement gap, the Liberals and the Bloc have chosen to target law-abiding religious Canadians. That is hypocrisy of the highest order, especially as they claim this bill is meant to protect the very communities it would most deeply wound.

For nearly a decade, this government has repeatedly marginalized Canadians of faith. They have attempted to strip charitable status from religious charities and pro-life organizations. They imposed the Canada summer jobs values test, punishing groups that refused to renounce their core religious beliefs. That is unbelievable and unconscionable.

I will note that this ideological overreach is not new. In fact, an early 2022 report from an advisory panel to the Department of National Defence recommended that the Canadian Armed Forces not employ chaplains whose religious traditions do not align with the government's ever-shifting vision of equality and inclusion.

That panel singled out the entire Abrahamic faith traditions—traditions that reserve the priesthood for men and that believe in the traditional view of marriage—as being incompatible with serving in the military. Think about that. Really, we as legislators need to think about this. A government that claims to champion diversity and inclusion was actively entertaining the exclusion of religious Canadians from serving as chaplains precisely because of their beliefs.

An hon. member

Shameful.

9:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

This is not tolerance. It is a blatant Liberal double standard.

Diversity is celebrated only when it mirrors the government's ideology and the Charter of Rights. Millions of Canadians are dismissed as an inconvenience. Bill C-9 directly targets their freedom of expression, yet the Liberals still claim to be the party of the charter even as they systematically attack the very freedoms the charter guarantees.

We're now getting close to the part where we engage the witnesses.

Witnesses who appeared before the justice committee debunked the Liberals' claim entirely. Numerous constitutional experts explained that the religious text defence is narrow, specific and constitutionally necessary. It is not a blanket protection. It applies only to good-faith expressions of sincerely held religious belief, not to violence, not to incitement and not to hatred.

The courts have been clear on this point for decades, but Liberals now believe they know better than the constitutional jurisprudence and better than every witness who has testified before them. Their ideological agenda matters more than evidence or constitutional balance.

If Bill C-9 passes, the consequences will be severe. I have a question for Liberal and Bloc members of this committee. Would a priest reading the scheduled Sunday mass, a reading set years in advance, face persecution or prosecution if the passage is deemed offensive?