Evidence of meeting #14 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-9.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Mr. Chair, I would ask you to suspend the meeting. I understand that this is unusual, but I need to consult with someone.
Liberal
Bloc
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Mr. Chair, again, in the spirit of being able to find a solution and perhaps a compromise, I'd like to move a motion. I have only the English version. I'm going to read it out.
I move that the committee invite the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Sean Fraser, to appear for one hour on Friday, December 12, at 9 a.m. to testify on Bill C-14, an act to amend the Criminal Code, the Youth Criminal Justice Act and the National Defence Act (bail and sentencing); that upon the conclusion of the minister's testimony, the committee proceed immediately to a resumption of clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-9, an act to amend the Criminal Code (hate propaganda, hate crime and access to religious or cultural places); that all amendments be deemed moved and put forward without further debate or amendment; that the committee not adjourn until clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-9 has been completed; and that the chair be instructed to report Bill C-9 back to the House at the earliest opportunity.
Can we get that translated into French?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
I call the meeting back to order.
There's no unanimous consent, which takes us to Mr. Dalton.
Conservative
Marc Dalton Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC
Thank you very much, Chair.
I appreciate the opportunity to share a few moments on Bill C-9 and the motion before us.
Most members in the House are probably receiving a lot of correspondence right now from people who are very concerned about this bill and the impact upon their—
Conservative
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON
Normally and generally, I refuse to interrupt a colleague with a point of order, and I hope he forgives me.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON
Well, it's an internal colleague, as opposed to external.
I apologize to Mr. Dalton, but I have a proposal. I seek unanimous consent to take the first part of Ms. Lattanzio's unanimous consent reference to the Minister of Justice appearing for one hour on December 12—I don't know if she mentioned a particular time—and add everything else that she had to say with respect to reporting it back to the House without amendment. That would be satisfactory to our Conservative team. I would be seeking unanimous consent on that, with no reference to Bill C-9.
Liberal
Conservative
Marc Dalton Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC
Thank you.
As I mentioned, I've been receiving a lot of correspondence on this bill. A lot of very concerned Canadians from coast to coast who are quite often not really thinking about politics and about the impact upon their own lives, as much as we might be wishing they were, are writing, and they're asking how this is going to impact them. I would say that I'm quite concerned about the bill before us. I know that's why we have the motion.
An important fact is that the government legislation already has the tools it needs to prosecute those who promote hate and genocide. I see this bill as politics—surprise—and bad politics, and bad for Canadians. It's hard to believe that the legislation before us is here in Canada. As a country, we've been known as a beacon of freedom. People from all over the world have immigrated here, and this seems quite contrary to the values of freedom of faith and expression that we have had over generations.
This is an extremely important bill. For me, it reminds me of the direction of other states that have banned different scriptures. I think of countries like China in the past under Mao. In Communist Russia and in Communist regimes, scriptures were banned. I actually have some friends who were involved in smuggling not drugs, not arms, but Bibles into the former Eastern bloc Communist countries, where people would be imprisoned and tortured for their faith, for having a Bible.
It moved into other countries, like China, later on. They said, “Well, do you know what? You can have the Bible, but here's what you can believe and what you can say.” You take off this section and this section and this section. Tell me what the difference is with what's before us here, Mr. Chair. You don't have to. That's a rhetorical question.
This is the same direction. I think we need to talk about the direction before us. This is a bad direction, whether you are a Christian, a Muslim or a Jewish person of faith—or even secular, because we're talking about fundamental rights for all Canadians. We shouldn't be going in this direction.
Personally, I am a Christian. My faith is fundamental to who I am. It's much more important to me than being a parliamentarian. It informs everything about direction and values. It's a light upon me. It's personal.
This motion before us expands it. It's saying that this needs to be more than just faith. It needs to talk about beliefs and your conscience. King David said that it's a light to our path. Actually, it shines inside of me, in the sense that it exposes things that I need to make changes in personally, even as a politician. It's a variety of things. It shines.
We just need to reflect here as a society, as a government, as the House of Commons, as parliamentarians, about the contributions. I'll make reference here specifically to Christians and the contributions of the Judeo-Christian faith. I know, obviously, that others can speak to other faiths, but let's reflect on its contribution to society, to the very foundation of who we are as a nation.
Yes, there are blemishes. People are people. I don't care what faith you subscribe to. At the same time, look at the importance of the Christian faith in education. I was a teacher for many years and taught socialism and history and looked at medieval Europe. Think of the importance of, for example, the monastic schools, where there was education and training. Think of the hospital system. Think of the Red Cross, which comes from a faith-based background, and Florence Nightingale. Think of the Salvation Army. Other members probably met with the Salvation Army when they were here on the Hill recently, talking about the influence that they've had and the help they give to those who are in need of emergency services. The work they do is amazing. From a secular, non-religious point of view, I think we would all say that this is very commendable. They're very clear in saying that it comes from a faith-based position of service.
What is core, and it is the challenge that I would say Christians feel, is that Christians feel like they're a punching bag. What's so important to realize is that so many of our perspectives as a culture have come from a Christian foundation. Even equality of men and women, for example, has not always been there, but in the scriptures, there's no such thing as man and woman in a biological sense. It's in terms of equality before God. It's always been a source of equality. I would even say to those who are feminists that some of that might come from a biblical perspective, in the sense that equality means not being subjugated under men, but equal. That isn't everywhere.
When I think about the whole issue of slavery, Christians were involved in that. Think of Wilberforce in the British Parliament bringing in legislation decade after decade to stop slavery and finally being successful. There's a song we've all heard, I'm sure. You hear it with the bagpipes. What comes to mind? It's Amazing Grace, written by John Newton in the 1700s. He was a slave trader involved in capturing slaves in Africa or in transporting them from Africa to the New World, imprisoning them and shackling them. These were terrible things. What happened to him? Read the song. What does it say?
Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
that saved a wretch like me!
I guess I'm choked up, because it's not just him; it's me. It really is. We all need saving, as far as I'm concerned. I'll just put that out there.
It says:
Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
that saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found:
was blind, but now I see.
You see the transformation of his life from someone who was in that position as a slave trader, as an evil person, and then being transformed. That's the message, I would say, of Jesus Christ and of the Bible. That's the difference that made me personally, and I'm speaking personally....
There's a verse that made me feel very alive. I was in the military and I was in my uniform. It's a verse that you probably may be familiar with. The verse is what? The verse says, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son”—that's Jesus Christ—“that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” That can just roll off, but it struck me.
I thought, “You know what? He didn't just die for the world; he died for me.” It wasn't because I was doing this bad thing or that terrible thing. It was more because of an attitude of selfishness in everything around me.
It motivated me—and it motivates Christians and people of faith—to realize that I'm here not to give through my own accumulating wealth and accumulating experiences, but to serve our community and our country. I think we're all here for that. We're here to serve our country. We're here to serve people. You've heard of the “cabinet minister”. We're here to minister and to serve.
That touched me in my life. It transformed me when I was an adolescent, and it has been directional my whole life. Look at the scriptures. They were written over 3,000 or 4,000 years ago—it was a long time ago—and in a lot of different cultures. We can look back and say this doesn't fit in and that doesn't fit in, but there are cultural and generational things—there are a lot of things—and they really come together.
As a Christian, I would say it's summed up in one phrase: God is love. That's in John 1. He's not just filling up; it's his whole heart. Even in his regulations, the rules and the structures, everything he has for mankind is out of love.
There's the Old Testament and the New Testament. Christians don't just take.... We believe it's a whole, but Christ clarifies it right there. He says this: You've heard it said, an eye for an eye, but I say to you, if someone slaps you on the cheek, turn to them the other cheek, and if someone persecutes you, don't return evil, but return good for evil.
That's transformative. For us as politicians, with our laws and with Bill C-9, to say take this out and take this in.... There's a lot of correction within the scriptures. It's not correction, but Christ explains a lot of that.
Members of the committee, thank you for your patience and for not making your interventions during my time. Take some time to think and realize that we should pull back on this.
To my colleagues and friends from Quebec, I get it. My mom is a French Canadian. I've lived in Quebec.
I know that the Church has been very influential for centuries and that this has been difficult. I understand that many people have resisted because the clergy was too powerful. We don’t want that; we want freedom, and I understand that. However, there is a balance to be found. It is important that people be free to express themselves, and we already have laws that ensure that balance. So I encourage my colleagues to vote against this bill.
Thank you very much.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Thank you, Mr. Dalton.
I'm looking at the clock. I'm going to suspend for question period.
Mr. Gill, you're next in the batting order, but I'm wondering if now is the right time to do it.
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
I think there are votes after, so as soon as QP and/or the votes are done—
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
It will be 15 minutes after whatever the last event is.
Okay. We'll suspend.
Liberal
