Evidence of meeting #31 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was berthold.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Thank you.
Mr. Lawton and then Mr. Housefather, you will be given two and a half minutes each.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
Before I ask my questions, I would like to thank you for your courage. I myself nearly lost my life to suicide 16 years ago. I'm no stranger to the pain associated with mental illness. I've also known people who struggled with addiction. Some overcame these challenges, and others did not. I believe that your work on this bill and your willingness to speak about the tragedy that your family experienced will save lives. So, thank you. Justice and compassion both play a key role in our efforts and work.
I need to ask my questions in English. I just wanted to share this more personal message with you first.
To whoever of David's family would like to answer, I want to ask about the importance of removing someone from the part of their life that has caused problems. I mean removal not just from the drugs but also from the people, because I know it is often a challenge when people are surrounded by the bad influences that got them into that situation. Someone can have short-term success with treatment and then come right back out and be around the people who were essential to the drug usage.
How does that factor into this?
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L’Érable—Lotbinière, QC
Unfortunately, Andrew, I will not be able to answer that question, because if I could have done it, I probably would have.
If you don't mind, I will turn to Angy. If David had been arrested, maybe this is something that I would have done. Removing him from his friends could have caused more problems, so I don't know.
Criminologist, As an Individual
I would like to draw a parallel that may strike a chord with you. There are similarities between this situation and the situation of a woman in a domestic violence setting. People say that it can take a woman seven attempts to leave her violent environment. However, each time she leaves that environment, she looks for the tools that will ultimately help her leave it for good.
Mr. Berthold spoke about recovery. I'll talk about recovery because you can't cure a substance abuse problem. Every time a person in a position of authority steps in to help a young person, that young person will gradually be given the tools to move forward, to learn to live with the substance abuse problem and eventually to overcome it.
Liberal
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Luc, Caroline and Justine, our hearts go out to you and to all the members of your family, as well as to everyone who has suffered the same pain. I greatly admire the fact that you have taken a tragedy and that you proposed a bill that can help others. No surprise, I support the bill and the amendments that you'll be moving.
I just have one question. As with all other justice‑related bills, it can only work if proper professional training is provided for police officers, judges and everyone else involved.
I think that we all agree that this bill should be passed. That said, once the bill has passed, what type of professional training should judges and police officers receive?
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L’Érable—Lotbinière, QC
Good question. I must confess that, even today, I'm closer to tragedy and intervention than to this type of solution.
Ms. Riendeau said this earlier. Assessments and training are needed. In Quebec, I think that judges are trained in domestic violence. That's vital. The same applies to police officers. If you can't understand the problem, you can't solve it. Yes, there will be training programs. Yes, there's education. Yes, there are many things. There are also many things that we haven't talked about here. We don't have the time and we want to focus on one thing.
As I said earlier, this is where society needs to step in. I liked what Mr. Fortin said earlier. We can't look after our infrastructure and concrete without looking after the people who will be using them. I think that this is vital. Yes, we'll need to move in this direction.
We plan to continue raising awareness, because that's the first step. It took me one step to be able to get in somewhere. It takes the passage of the bill to give me the authority to talk to people and educate them. You'll be giving me this tool, and I hope that you'll all use it in your area too.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Thank you, Mr. Housefather.
We're going to suspend for a moment and then go to clause-by-clause.
Luc, I want to say thank you to you and your family again for sharing David's story. If there's anything else the three of you want to say before we move on, I'm happy to give you the time.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L’Érable—Lotbinière, QC
It's just thank you. Thank you to all my colleagues. It's stressful to do that kind of testimony, and it was stressful to talk about it in the House, but it's worth it, because I think we have already helped a lot of families just by the exchanges we've had with them. This is exactly where we want to go.
I want to thank all my colleagues in the House of Commons. It's difficult to take a personal situation and to talk about it this way. My spouse and I made this decision together early on. We don't do anything without the agreement of all our family members. We decided to do this. It isn't easy, but we're doing it. We're sure that we've already changed some small things. People have contacted us and are telling us about these things. Without necessarily realizing it, we've already helped people, just by talking about this.
Thank you for talking about this. For our part, we'll use this as a tool. I also hope that all my colleagues will use this as a tool in their communities and constituencies to help young people.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank all the people here, both around the table and behind it, for helping us.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
I'd like to call this meeting back to order.
We are now going to move to clause-by-clause.
With us for technical questions, if there are any, we will have Charles Bélanger, director and general counsel in the youth criminal justice division of the Department of Justice, and Lise-Anne Wheeler, counsel in the youth criminal justice division. They will be here shortly.
I could read through how we do clause-by-clause, but I'm going to suggest that if members around the table don't know that by now, we have other issues that we need to deal with, so I'm going to move right to clause-by-clause.
(On clause 1)
We'll start with clause 1.
Mr. Berthold, I know the answer to this, but we need unanimous consent to have you move the amendments.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
We have unanimous consent, so I will call clause 1, which takes us to CPC-1.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L’Érable—Lotbinière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Following our consultations with Mr. Fraser's office and the Department of Justice's recommendations, we came to the conclusion that, in the case of treatment, we shouldn't focus solely on treating drug addiction, but that we could go further. We should be talking about treating not only people who are already addicted to drugs, but also people who are struggling with problematic drug use. This broadens the scope of the bill. Many of my amendments actually stem from this desire to reach more people.
When we introduce a private member's bill, we try to put in as little as possible to make sure that it will pass. In this case, I was asked whether we could go further. Obviously, I said yes. I'm grateful to the people who made these recommendations.
I move that Bill C‑231, in clause 1, be amended by replacing lines 8 to 17 on page 1 with the following, under the heading that would now be “Problematic substance use treatment program”:
(1.1) person is alleged to have committed an offence under subsection 4(1) of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act or subsection 8(1) of the Cannabis Act, the police officer shall consider whether it would be sufficient to refer the young person, with the young person's consent, to a problematic substance use treatment program.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
I see no other hands, so shall CPC-1 carry?
(Amendment agreed to)
(Clause 1 as amended agreed to)
(On clause 2)
I call clause 2, which takes us to CPC-2.
Go ahead, Mr. Berthold.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L’Érable—Lotbinière, QC
This amendment falls into the same category. It's about a treatment program.
I move that Bill C‑231, in clause 2, be amended by replacing lines 18 to 24 on page 1 with the following:
2 Section 10 of the Act is amended by adding the following after subsection (3): (3.1) An extrajudicial sanction may include requiring a young person to attend a problematic substance use treatment program or any other treatment program.
That's all.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Shall CPC-2 carry?
(Amendment agreed to)
(Clause 2 as amended agreed to)
(Clause 3 negatived)
We'll go to new clause 3.1, which is CPC-3.
Go ahead, Mr. Berthold.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L’Érable—Lotbinière, QC
Indeed, we wanted to amend clause 3. That's why we voted against it.
Instead, I move that Bill C‑231 be amended by adding after line 4 on page 2 the following regarding a treatment program:
3.1 The Act is amended by adding the following after section 41: 41.1 If a youth justice court finds a young person guilty of any offence, the court may, before imposing a specific sentence, while taking into account the principles set out in subparagraphs 3(1)(b)(iv) and (v) and the purpose and principles set out in section 38 and with the consent of the Attorney General and the young person, delay sentencing to enable the young person to attend a problematic substance use treatment program or any other treatment program.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Shall CPC-3 carry?
(Amendment agreed to)
(On clause 4)
I will call clause 4. That takes us to CPC-4.
Mr. Lawton.
Conservative
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
I went through the same mental exercise just before you did, so don't feel bad.
I'll go to clause 4, which takes us to CPC-4.
Mr. Berthold.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L’Érable—Lotbinière, QC
I move that Bill C‑231, in clause 4, be first amended by replacing line 13 on page 2 with the following:
gram….
Wait a minute. I have a problem. I'll read it in English.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON
Mr. Chair, we've all reviewed this material. Can we just deem that it's been moved, without any explanation, unless the sponsor wishes to put it on the record?