Evidence of meeting #23 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
I understand that Mr. Lick, like Mr. Walbourne—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
I'm afraid your time is up, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.
We will move on to Mr. Garrison, please.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I thank the minister for being here today to talk about ministerial responsibility. I think this gets at the crux of the problem in the failure to attack sexual misconduct in the Canadian Forces.
When Operation Honour was announced in 2015, I was among those who gave credit to the Canadian military for recognizing the problem and setting out to solve it, but what we heard multiple times is that Operation Honour actually failed. We heard multiple times in this study from witnesses that members of the Canadian Armed Forces felt that there were two different standards, and that senior leaders in the Canadian military were not held to the same standards as rank-and-file members when it came to Operation Honour. This is the crux of the problem. None of the actions can have any credibility in assuring women that they can serve equally if there's no action when there's misconduct at the highest level.
Minister, my question is a very direct question. General Vance was allowed to continue serving as chief of the defence staff after credible allegations of sexual misconduct had been raised against him. Who is the minister responsible for him continuing to serve as chief of the defence staff under those circumstances?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, as I stated before, any time information is brought forward, regardless of rank or position.... In this case, it was about the GIC appointment of the former chief of the defence staff. It was about making sure that the information brought forward, the allegations, were taken extremely seriously, and that's exactly what was done. It is important to make sure that the proper process is followed by the book. If you do not follow the proper process, you may interfere in a just outcome.
I have taken very seriously my responsibility to the Canadian Armed Forces, from the day I came in. The focus that we put on our people, the focus that our government has put on dealing with all types of systemic misconduct, especially sexual misconduct...we have taken steps.
Now, when it comes to Operation Honour, yes, it has run its course. It was started before we formed government. What we are doing is looking at what worked, what things we need to keep and what things we need to change. Our team has been working aggressively, even before the allegations on the former chief of the defence staff came forward this year. We wanted to work towards a complete culture change, something that we were already discussing. We were looking at all forms of misconduct. We had a panel put together made up of former serving members who had lived experience that includes systemic racism all the way through to gender bias and sexual misconduct, so that we could actually move forward.
Madam Chair, one of the things I will always champion with all of the senior leadership is to work forward and create that inclusive environment. No, it's not going to be easy, but one thing I can assure you is that no one is going to rest. Everybody within the armed forces, including the acting chief of the defence staff and our deputy minister, and all of you will continue to work to make the necessary changes.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Well, Madam Chair, I'm not sure how that answers the question of ministerial responsibility. Vance continued to serve under a cloud of allegations about sexual misconduct, and nothing happened.
Now, the minister always leans on investigations. No investigation happened in 2018, so I want to go back to ministerial responsibility. Who is the minister who was responsible for making sure that an investigation took place? When the minister found out that PCO was not investigating, when the Minister of Defence found out that the ombudsman's office was not investigating, was he not the minister responsible—not to do an investigation, but to make sure an independent investigation was conducted? Why was the matter dropped? Is the minister responsible for this failure to conduct an investigation or not?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, regardless of the assertions that were posed in the question, in our society, in our system, we have due process, and that process has to be followed. Regardless of what position one holds, we cannot just make a decision and try to get an outcome; we have to follow the absolute process. Just like in any other police investigation, if you don't follow the absolute process here, in this case, when information was brought forward from a GIC.... And GIC appointments are the responsibility of management by the Privy Council Office, so in this case, that was the reason information was sent to the Privy Council Office to conduct that immediate follow-up.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
That immediate follow-up was conducted, and then from there, multiple follow-ups continued. The information that was provided to this committee, from what I understand, from a production of papers, outlines the actions that actually took place and also states that the reason why the former ombudsman did not provide any further information was that the complainant did not want to come forward.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Minister, you seem to be saying that the Prime Minister, then, is responsible for the fact that there was no investigation, because the Privy Council Office reported to him. When the Privy Council failed to proceed with an investigation, the Prime Minister should have acted. Is that what you're telling us under ministerial responsibility?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, I'm not sure how the member or his party decide on what type of power politicians should have, but one thing I can assure you is that—
NDP
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, I'm trying.... I can answer the question or not.
Madam Chair, may I answer the question?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Thank you.
No politician, Madam Chair, should ever be involved in an investigation. What we need to do is allow for independent public service members to look at the facts and then decide which direction it needs to go. If you don't follow that process, you will undermine a potential just outcome for the person who has come forward.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Which minister was responsible for making sure there was an investigation?
Liberal
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
To follow on that question, Minister, is a minister, a politician—or, in this case, you—responsible to ensure that the Canadian Armed Forces has a chief of the defence staff who is above reproach and has not carried out and is not carrying out any sexual misconduct?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, it's all our responsibility, including the person, anybody who's—
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
No, Minister, is it your responsibility?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, if I could try to answer the question.... I'm getting cut off.
If it's okay, Madam Chair, I could try to answer the previous question there.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, first of all, when it comes to any type of sexual misconduct, it is all our responsibility. When it comes to the Minister of National Defence, under the National Defence Act, I have the direction, a ministerial responsibility for the direction the Canadian Armed Forces goes. That direction we put in our defence policy, and we put it in our defence policy to make sure that we have a workplace free from harassment, and we put our people number one, Madam Chair. We know that we have not—
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Minister.
Were you in 2018, and then in 2019, satisfied that the chief of the defence staff, General Vance, was beyond reproach and was not, or had not been, engaged in sexual misconduct in any way, shape or form?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, when it comes to any information that has come forward, what we need to do and must always do is make sure that any information is sent to the appropriate authorities—independent appropriate authorities, not politicians—to launch investigations or to stop investigations so that the independent officials can make the determination of where—