Evidence of meeting #48 for Natural Resources in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was waste.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Binder  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission
Patsy Thompson  Director General, Directorate of Environmental and Radiation Protection and Assessment, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission
Ramzi Jammal  Executive Vice-President and Chief Regulatory Operations Officer, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission
Duncan Hawthorne  President and Chief Executive Officer, Bruce Power
Patrick Lamarre  President, SNC-Lavalin Nuclear Inc., Bruce Power

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good afternoon.

We're here today pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) to do a study on the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission's decision regarding the transport of decommissioned steam generators to Sweden.

We have two panels at our committee today.

The first panel is from the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, Dr. Michael Binder, president and chief executive officer. We have Ramzi Jammal, executive vice-president and chief regulatory operations officer. We have Dr. Patsy Thompson, director general, director of environmental and radiation protection and assessment.

Welcome to all of you.

We'll start the panel as usual with the presentation. Could you go ahead with your presentation, please?

3:30 p.m.

Dr. Michael Binder President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, Members of the Committee, good afternoon.

I am pleased to be here today to address the Commission’s decision.

There's been a significant amount of misinformation circulating about this shipment. I hope you will find the following technical presentation useful.

I always appreciate the opportunity to provide clarity on a nuclear file, particularly given that our mandate is to actually disseminate some objective information.

We represent the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission.

We were established in May 2000 under the Nuclear Safety and Control Act, which replaced the AECB that was established in 1946.

Some of you may not realize we are now celebrating our 65th anniversary. We're not planning to retire any time soon. We are very proud of our safety culture and our safety record, which I would like to argue is second to none.

We are a quasi-judicial administrative tribunal. All our commissioners are independent.

The Commission’s hearings are public and broadcast over the Web. Our decisions are transparent and science based.

Let me start by trying to be very clear. Canada has a clear radioactive waste policy and all applicants to the CNSC must comply with that particular policy. It is based on the environmental principles of reduce, reuse, and recycle. There is a very well-defined international framework that explains what those words mean. There are domestic regulations and policies, and we've listed all the policies and documents that can shed light on this idea that there is no policy.

It is important to note that Canada has a clear policy on nuclear waste.

How is the transport of nuclear substances regulated?

First of all, all nuclear substances are governed by the International Atomic Energy Agency, which is governed by the international maritime dangerous goods code. There is a CNSC regulation for the packaging and transport of nuclear substances. There is a Transport Canada regulation for the transportation of dangerous goods. In the steam-generated case, you need a Swedish and a U.S. authority.

By the time anybody can comply with all those regulations, this would be the safest shipping of any hazardous material that I can think of.

There are many dangerous goods that are regularly transported in the St. Lawrence Seaway. There is a list, and if you look at the last item, it includes yellowcake uranium. They're shipped in and out every day of the year.

By the way, none of that shipping requires a municipality authorization to go through. It is routine business.

No precedent is being set. Millions of shipments of nuclear substances in Canada are transported every year. In Montreal alone, each year there are over 9,000 shipments that pass through the Montreal Trudeau Airport, over 1,000 shipments through the Port of Montreal, and over 50,000 medical isotopes. It is a routine activity, with no safety issues.

Why are there no safety issues?

We do not have problems because we use pre-approved packages.

We use internationally pre-approved transport packages. They are internationally approved, and therefore, when you package radioactive material in those packages, there is no need for any further approval. It gets shipped like any other commodity.

Let's turn to steam generators on slide 9. What's different about steam generators? It's their size. They do not fit in a pre-approved package, and therefore they require what is known as special arrangements. It does not mean they get a kind of “wink, wink, we'll approve it”. It means there is no approved package; therefore, we have to look at the safety case on a case-by-case basis.

I just point out to you that there are four grams of radioactive material. If we could put all of this in a pre-approved package, we wouldn't be appearing in front of you. This would have gone routinely through the system.

So what's inside those steam generators? If you look at slide 10, you will see that there are 65 kilometres of inner tubes. In those tubes, that's where water gets circulated and turned into steam. Over the 25 years of the life of the steam generator, there is a minute amount of radioactive deposit on the inside of those tubes.

It's important to understand that the outer shell is five centimetres of clean steel. I was trying to give you a scale. Do you see the little black box on the right? The width of the shell is five centimetres. This is not an aluminum cooking pot. This is a significant clean steel that provides safe package for the amount of nuclear material inside it. That explains why there's such low radioactivity on the outside.

If you look at slide 11, we actually compare some of the radioactive detection, the dose rate, beside the steam generator, and you can see its equivalent is less than the medical isotope boxes in which we ship all medical isotopes across the world.

If you look at slide 12, you will see that it compares the radioactive dose with background radioactivity and medical procedures, and you can see this is a really small amount of radioactive material.

On slide 13 there is one more kind of analogy, that the total amount of radioactivity inside a steam generator is less than the amount of radioactivity in a pacemaker.

Okay, so let's turn now to le processus de la commission. We held public hearings on September 28 and 29, 2010; 78 interventions appeared in front of us. It was two days of hearings, 22 hours of public hearings.

Several Quebec stakeholders had the opportunity to present to the Commission.

We've been accused of not allowing Quebeckers to participate.

We have included the list of all the witnesses that appeared before the Commission. It was a comprehensive public consultation process.

We listened in the first round of hearings to some of the issues. We took an additional amount of time to study some of the issues and allowed everybody additional time to provide further information. We carefully considered all the presentations given by all interveners, our staff, and everybody else in the analysis.

The hearing was widely disseminated both in Ontario and Quebec. In addition to this, CNSC staff made numerous presentations to city councils, mayors, and aboriginal councils. Anybody who wanted to know about this file and asked got a visit from our staff, who made a technical presentation about what was involved.

The next slide tries to explain the kind of analysis and science undertaken. CNSC staff totally evaluated the following safety areas, as listed here. It's important to understand that in doing this evaluation, they took into account all the presentations that were put in front of us.

On packaging and transport, all careful measures were taken into this proposal. The transport vehicle will not go faster than 30 kilometres per hour. The ship is a specialized nuclear qualified ship. It's only loaded at 25% of its capacity, and the crew is very well trained. The conclusion is that the packaging and transport comply with national and international regulations.

We've been accused of not doing environmental assessments. I have to tell you that we had legal opinions that there was no trigger under the CEAA for an environmental assessment. I know this is being contested now in front of a judicial review. But I have to tell you that we do such environmental assessments routinely on practically every project we do, from uranium mines to nuclear approval. It's the same CNSC staff who are doing the environmental assessments.

The staff evaluated some multiple worst-case scenarios, and the bottom line is that the risk for the environment....

In the worst case scenario, the danger to the environment and human health would be negligible.

The finding was the same for protection measures. We concluded the following:

The dose to the workers and members of the public would be less than 0.1% of the limit for members of the public, which is negligible.

We reviewed Bruce Power's emergency response plan and the International Maritime Organization regulations, and the commission concluded that the emergency measures are adequate.

You can imagine that there are a lot of organizations involved in sharing security, including Transport Canada, the Marine Security Operation Centre, the RCMP, the Coast Guard, the Ontario Provincial Police, and la Sûreté du Quebec.

We concluded that the safety measures were adequate.

In conclusion, the commission is satisfied that the transport can be completed safely and that the risk to persons and the environment is negligible. The shipment meets all Canadian and international regulations and requirements, and Bruce Power is qualified to carry out the plan.

Overall the plan is good for the environment. It's recycling clean steel. It's good waste management practice--it reduces the volume of waste by 90%--and it is safe.

I'd just like to remind everybody about our battle cry, if you like: The commission will never compromise safety.

We will never compromise safety. Thank you very much.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, Dr. Binder, for your presentation. It was concise and very complete. Much appreciated.

We will go directly to questions and comments, starting with Monsieur Coderre for up to seven minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you, Mr. Binder.

I might appear smart because this is the second time I have heard this presentation. Thank you for once again providing this report. As you are aware, there are potential problems with this initiative and hundreds of municipalities and aboriginal groups are opposed to it. There is also a huge perception issue. You have also stated that there has been misinformation. For all these reasons and because each party only has one opportunity to ask questions, the Committee will be asking you back after it has heard from other stakeholders. You are the subject experts and, as such, the Committee will be seeking clarifications from you.

I have several questions now and may have others later. I have read your whole report on the rationale underpinning your decision.

First of all, why was your decision to award the license based on data provided by Bruce Power? I heard one of your Director Generals, Mr. Régimbald being interviewed by Dutrizac on the 98.5 radio station. He stated that he had confidence in the scientific data provided to him by Bruce Power. The Commission has in-house expertise. You conduct evaluations. Did you request the opinion of experts from outside the Commission?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Dr. Binder, go ahead.

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Dr. Michael Binder

First of all, we always verify data. Our experts are in a better position to explain our process. We developed our own criteria. The Commission’s conclusions were not based on the data provided to us but rather on a comprehensive study by our experts and presentations from all stakeholders.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

This data was a baseline but was it verified by other stakeholders.

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Dr. Michael Binder

It was indeed.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

One of the potential issues is the impact on the environment. In 2006, Bruce Power conducted an environmental assessment on the storage of waste. The evaluation did not deal with the export of waste. That changes things a bit. You have stated that you are in compliance with the Nuclear Safety and Control Act. Why then, in light of the change made between 2006 and 2010, did you not bother to conduct a fresh assessment? Bruce Power was licensed to store waste but not to export it. Do you not think that that totally changes the basis of your assessment?

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Dr. Michael Binder

I would like my colleague to answer that one. However, before he does, I would just like to point out that an environmental assessment is not a contract. It is a study designed to determine concrete action required. What did in fact change, was technology. Studsvik technology was not around in 2006. As a result, it was a matter of deciding whether we could use existing technology.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Dr. Thompson, go ahead.

3:45 p.m.

Dr. Patsy Thompson Director General, Directorate of Environmental and Radiation Protection and Assessment, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Thank you.

The 2006 environmental assessment was conducted for the retrofit of units at the Bruce Power plant. Waste management was only a small part of the assessment. The assessment was designed to ascertain whether the retrofit could be done safely without impact on the environment. The plan was to leave the steam generators in situ in the waste management facility at the Bruce Power plant.

The Federal Court has been very clear in several cases, specifically Athabasca Regional Government v. Canada (A.G.) and Areva Resources Canada Inc. This case pertained to the McClean Lake uranium mine. The Canadian Environmental Assessment Act applies to the planning process. The role of the regulatory body—in this case, the Commission—is to ensure that the process include an assessment of any new environmental risk reduction technology used as well as an evaluation of the technology’s impact on the environment. This is what was done.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

One of the problems I see is with recycling. The Bureau of International Recycling has clearly stated that recycled nuclear substances should not be mixed with other material. However, this is what will happen. These steam generators are to be shipped to Sweden. They will be recycled and the nuclear waste will then be brought back to be buried here. This material could eventually be reused. It will contain metal that will be recycled and mixed with other materials. Even though the shipping of nuclear waste is something that is happening already, this is the first time waste is being exported for recycling.

My time is short. Therefore, I would like you to answer two questions at once. How is it possible that a license has been issued for the outward shipment of the generators to Sweden but not for the return leg?

As you say in your report, we do not know what will come back to Canada. We have no information on the plutonium.

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Dr. Michael Binder

I'd like to answer a couple of things.

First of all, we are not exporting waste. The nuclear waste is coming back to be buried. I really cannot understand what you are saying. The nuclear waste is coming back. What stays is the recycled steel, which is regulated by the Swedish regulatory authority and the EU regulatory authority. So the notion that they will allow steel to be turned into forks and knives, as some people say, is ridiculous.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Respectfully, why are you taking it personally?

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Dr. Michael Binder

I'm not taking it personally.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

I'm just saying that there will be some metal. There's some perception and there are some issues. It's nothing personal. You're an expert. Some metal will be recycled. Do you have confirmation that everything will be okay from that recycled metal? That's all I'm asking.

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Dr. Michael Binder

The metal that will eventually be put into scrap metal is clean. It will not otherwise be allowed to circulate, because the Swedish and the EU regulators will not allow a radioactive product to go into normal steel. So it's very important to understand that the waste will come back and be buried where it was originally intended. All this plant is presumed to do is use the new technology.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Coderre.

Ms. Brunelle.

you have up to seven minutes. Go ahead, please.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen.

I, like other ordinary people, have a lot of questions about this initiative. I have here a copy of the resolutions against the shipping of nuclear waste passed by 61 municipalities, including Montreal and Quebec City, and by five Regional Municipalities. The Minister of Développement durable, de l'Environnement et des Parcs du Québec, Pierre Arcand, has criticized the way you operate. Do you not think that you have failed to provide people with sufficient information?

Bruce Power failed to inform people. It appears to me, that given the scale of the project, you were pretty cursory in your efforts. Minister Pierre Arcand pointed out to you in a letter that Quebeckers would feel the impact of any potential accident. To my mind, it is only natural that there be a public outcry. People are wondering why you authorized this shipment.

The public has always thought that waste should be dealt with where it is produced. Ontario chose nuclear power. It opted to operate nuclear power stations and, as a result, should dispose of its waste at home.

You contend that you are not setting a precedent. However, you are indeed creating a precedent in terms of the size of the generators. People are also concerned that other plants may be decommissioned and that the Saint Lawrence may become a nuclear waste highway. That would be quite simply unacceptable.

No matter your arguments about the small quantity of radioactive material and the low risk, the fact remains that there are dangers. People are worried. Why did you agree to conduct the assessment and authorize the project?

I really fail to understand. It seems to fly in the face of everything the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission is supposed to stand for.

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Dr. Michael Binder

There is a very simple reason for that. The operation is really very safe. Mr. Jammal met Minister Arcand. He might be shed more light on this issue.

3:55 p.m.

Ramzi Jammal Executive Vice-President and Chief Regulatory Operations Officer, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Brunelle, the Commission would not approve the shipment if it were not safe. Allow me to point out that the hue and cry about this project is because of the focus on the word “nuclear”.

The Commission’s decision is based on scientific fact. We conducted comprehensive analysis, which will be independently verified by the United States and Sweden. Consequently, an unsafe project would not get the Commission’s stamp of approval. It is now our job to ensure that people are clearly informed. We all have a leadership role in ensuring the Commission’s findings are based on scientific fact. As the Chair has rightly pointed out, the Commission assessed environmental impact using worst case scenarios. We even developed imaginary scenarios to ensure no impact on those living along the length of the river.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Despite your contentions, there are concerns. Did you consider any alternative solutions as part of the project assessment process? We are aware, and you have confirmed this, that your role is to issue licenses. I have read your report, which is liberally peppered with arguments submitted by Bruce Power. You failed to mention the issue of plutonium. As a result, some people are contending that the shipment may exceed permitted limits. Your poor and scanty presentation undermines the message. You held two cursory public meetings. In addition, you failed to consider alternative solutions.

Is this due to shortcomings in the legislation? Should there not be an alternative solution? It appears to me that your role stops at assessing whether the project is dangerous and whether it can be authorized. However, it seems to me that you could have attempted to develop a plan B. Did you have a plan B?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Vice-President and Chief Regulatory Operations Officer, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Ramzi Jammal

I would like to make one thing clear. The approved project does not exceed international regulatory requirements, which is what you have suggested. The scenario developed and assessed by Commission staff looked at worst case situations. So, I would just like to stress that the Commission took very stringent steps and held Bruce Power to account.

We developed hypothetical scenarios. The first focused on non-fixed, loose matter inside the generators. We considered that all the material could potentially be released.

In the second scenario, the casing around the steam generator failed to prevent nuclear matter from escaping. In other words, there was a leak situation.

The third scenario focused on the ships transporting the generators. The ship is specially designed for the transportation of irradiated nuclear fuel. Therefore, it is designed to carry more highly irradiated nuclear matter than that contained in the steam generators. The vessel was designed to carry irradiated fuel, plutonium and reactor fuel.

The Commission considered all these issues. People have based their conclusions on one single sentence in our report. We were transparent in our submission of the assessment to the Commission. It is available to anyone. We concluded that as far as the casing was concerned, the substance was fixed inside, the steam generators were sealed and there was therefore no risk of matter leaking into the environment. Consequently, we deemed the project to be safe.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Ms. Brunelle. Your time is up.

Mr. Cullen, for up to seven minutes. Go ahead, please.