Official Languages Committee on Feb. 21st, 2017

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Dear friends, it's always a pleasure to welcome you to discuss such important issues. Thank you for being with us today. Our committee is studying a number of crucial issues concerning minorities. In this context, it is imperative that we find solutions and quickly make recommendations.

First of all, I would like to congratulate my Conservative and New Democrat colleagues—which I don't do often—who are very supportive of this. They say they do not live in a minority setting, have no experience on the ground or have all the information they need, but they have been true partners in this study and in the work we have been doing since the beginning of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

In addition, I wasn't here when Mr. Corbeil appeared before the committee. Since the issues you have told us about today pain me very much, I probably wouldn't have been in a good mood when he appeared. I'm glad you've thought about these issues.

It was said that the fees are based on the number of students, but the appropriate questions that would produce results aren't being asked. I have a problem with that.

You talked earlier about the number of students who need francization services. As a former director general in the school system, let me tell you that about 80% of students enrolling in French schools in Nova Scotia need support for francization. That percentage probably reflects the situation across the country, with the exception of New Brunswick, of course. So it's a major problem.

From what Mr. Roy said earlier, children who need francization services are not covered by the census questions. As a result, when they, in turn, become parents, they do not benefit from these rights. This is a major problem that needs to be addressed.

To ensure data consistency, it is important that these questions be asked in the census rather than in a provincial context.

Mr. Power and Mr. Roy, do you have any comments on that?

[Mark Power]

It isn't the same thing at all. When we are in front of a judge, we need real data, serious and reliable data. A sample of a sample—or a post-census survey—has very little value in court.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Great.

I'll ask my questions quickly.

What link can be made between these data and services in French? I'm referring to the regulation under moratorium and to Bill S-209 proposed by the Senate.

[Marc-André Roy]

The Charter protects the right to services in the language of the minority, where there is a significant demand. In determining whether or not demand is significant, several things must be considered, primarily the vitality of the community and the number of people who may be able to avail themselves of this right, that is, who have sufficient knowledge of French and who live in French. The same questions aimed at rights holders under section 23 could be asked here, as well. They would greatly assist us in understanding the demand for services.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

So from the point of view of vitality, we have lost 35 years since 1982.

The last report is 2036, in another 20 years. Basically, we won't really move forward unless we act quickly.

I also understood that British Columbia sent a letter to the federal government. Have other provinces done the same? Mr. Boileau, have other provinces sent letters asking the federal government to do something about this?

[François Boileau]

Ontario asks the federal government regularly to review not the census questions, but its calculation method for Ontario schools so as to integrate the inclusive definition of francophone, the IDF. An exchange between the provinces and the federal government would certainly be beneficial in this respect.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

It would be good to receive an official letter from Ontario.

[François Boileau]

I'm working on it.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Do you have a question about other provinces?

[Mark Power]

I'm eager to read the letter from the Ontario Minister of Education.

Mr. Samson, the short answer is that I don't know. I think there are other provinces out west and in the Maritimes that are following British Columbia's lead. It is to be expected that New Brunswick, which is an official bilingual province, will send a similar letter. We're going to seek those letters, Mr. Samson.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much.

I'll end with an extremely important question about section 23.

Is there anything in this section that can be used to help communities that haven't had access to this data for years to promote their vitality in education and other fields?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, François Choquette]

You have 30 seconds. Unfortunately, that's all the time you have left.

[Mark Power]

So little time is difficult for a lawyer, Mr. Chair.

The future of French outside Quebec depends on the Government of Canada. Whether it is through the so-called strategic agreement for federal-provincial funds—the official languages in education program, or OLEP, agreements—or better census data, we need your help.

It doesn't make sense for the Government of Canada to interfere with section 23. Ultimately, I understand Victoria and Regina are saying “not right away”, but it's unacceptable for the Canadian government to be responsible for our inability to properly manage the future in terms of capital. It's illegal, even.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, François Choquette]

Thank you.

Mr. Arseneault, you have the floor for six minutes.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll continue with this topic, but first I would like to thank Mr. Boileau, Mr. Roy, Mr. Power, Ms. Côté and Mrs. Lanthier.

What I have heard today is like the finest poetry about language rights, especially in the area of education.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

That's saying a lot.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

There's a question I've been dying to ask.

I'll apologize first because I'm not a constitutionalist. I was fortunate to be born in New Brunswick, where I was able to go to school in French from kindergarten until the end of law school. I didn't have to fight like in other places in Canada. I consider myself spoiled as a francophone outside Quebec.

In short, I have a rough understanding of the ruling in the matter of the Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique. We are talking a lot about Statistics Canada and the federal government's obligations. I don't want to get into this discussion because you've had enough questions about this and there will be more.

I don't see that this ruling means that the provinces have an obligation to count the rights holders, regardless of whether it is done by Statistics Canada or by other means. Is that what we are to understand?

[Mark Power]

It must be done. As Mr. Roy explained, it will be done better, more reliably, more quickly and at a lower cost if Ottawa does it. But someone has to.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I'm sorry, but I don't have a lot of time.

Mr. Power, you know what I'm talking about. I don't want to ask leading questions, but isn't a province in a better position to count the rights holders itself? This works by region. There are francophone strongholds in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, and anglophones in Quebec, too. There are some in the Gaspé region. There are regions with minorities that I think the provinces could count even better if they used their own methods.

I'll come back to my question and ask it another way. Does the Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique ruling not tell us that the provinces must have their tools and do this census?

[Mark Power]

The more objective the data, the more reliable it is. When it comes from Ottawa, some provinces are almost not interested in counting or counting properly. Ironically, it's sometimes preferable to have some distance. This is one of those cases.

[Sylviane Lanthier]

May I add something?

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Yes.

[Sylviane Lanthier]

I don't think the provinces count the rights holders in the same way as the census. The provinces use census data to determine what the clientele will be for the next five years. It allows them to know how to organize the schools, to make infrastructure plans and so on. The provinces don't do the census.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I understand, but—

[Sylviane Lanthier]

And they won't tomorrow either.