Evidence of meeting #9 for Pay Equity in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ontario.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Julie Shugarman  Consulting Director, National Association of Women and the Law
Johanne Perron  Executive Director, New Brunswick Coalition for Pay Equity
Anne Levesque  Co-chair, National Steering Committee, National Association of Women and the Law
Marie-Thérèse Chicha  Former Member, Pay Equity Task Force and, Professor, School of Industrial Relations, University of Montreal, As an Individual
Emanuela Heyninck  Commissioner, Ontario Pay Equity Commission
Linda Davis  Past-President, Business and Professional Women's Clubs of Ontario
Paul Durber  Consultant, Opus Mundi Canada, As an Individual

7:10 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses before us today.

We have often heard witnesses say that it is time to put forward a proactive system. I think we tend to agree with the folks who presented their evidence before us.

I'm wondering, if we were to recommend to government a proactive system with legislation, what sorts of recommendations should we deliver to the government about how to work with unions in the implementation of that proactive system. Maybe you could use examples from the provinces or other experiences that you might have.

7:15 p.m.

Consulting Director, National Association of Women and the Law

Julie Shugarman

Just so I understand your question, do you mean in the implementation process of the legislation?

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Yes.

7:15 p.m.

Consulting Director, National Association of Women and the Law

Julie Shugarman

So you don't mean in the legislation itself? Or did you mean both?

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Actually I'd be happy to hear if you had any insight into that at either stage.

7:15 p.m.

Consulting Director, National Association of Women and the Law

Julie Shugarman

In the implementation, I think that NAWL would stand by what was recommended in 2005, which was that you find a gifted facilitator to take your draft legislation back to stakeholder groups—and that certainly includes and must include the unions—for input. I think on the front end that's necessary.

In terms of what the role is of unions in the actual legislation itself, I think the Bilson report provides a lot of specificity on that, which you can use. It's very specific and helpful and I think it's in there for you.

7:15 p.m.

Executive Director, New Brunswick Coalition for Pay Equity

Johanne Perron

That's also what I remember about the report. It contains a lot of details about the steps to reach not only unions, but also the representatives of non-unionized workers. The participation of employees in the process is really important. In essence, that is part of recognizing the value of the work of women and female-dominated jobs. By participating in a committee like this, people can better explain their own work. That's also important and it should not be limited to unions.

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Furthermore, if a proactive system could be put forward, how could we ensure that pay equity is maintained?

What steps are needed to maintain a proactive system?

7:15 p.m.

Executive Director, New Brunswick Coalition for Pay Equity

Johanne Perron

I think the legislation needs to contain guidelines that explain what needs to be done to maintain pay equity. There also need to be times when the work done is reviewed. Once again, the report mentions that, and provides recommendations. Various sections of the committee's report address various issues. There are recommendations for each of the problems that might be addressed, such as how to maintain a system of that kind.

7:15 p.m.

Consulting Director, National Association of Women and the Law

Julie Shugarman

In chapter 13 of the recommendations, I think you get really specific steps on maintenance regimes. The specificity even gets down to at what stages you need to be reporting out on what you're doing, so I would direct you to chapter 13.

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Sure. Maybe as my last question I'll dig a bit further into my colleague's question about implementation using a phased-in or a staged approach.

I think it was the Association of Labour Lawyers that talked about maybe making the 2004 recommendations on implementation more palatable by starting with the civil service, then moving to regulated employers, and then contractors. In your mind, would that be a palatable approach?

7:15 p.m.

Consulting Director, National Association of Women and the Law

Julie Shugarman

I think we stand by our earlier comment that it's important to take the recommendations as a whole. In terms of a staged response, I don't think we have the expertise to comment on that.

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Okay.

7:20 p.m.

Executive Director, New Brunswick Coalition for Pay Equity

Johanne Perron

We have the experience, though, in New Brunswick.

At some point, there was an election where all political parties promised to have pay equity legislation for all of the public sector, and I believe, even for the private sector, but when the Liberal government of the time, which was that of Mr. McKenna, came in, he adopted legislation for only one part of the civil service. Those workers in those departments were part I workers. That didn't include education, hospitals or health, or crown corporations. They were supposed to add other groups afterwards and didn't. It stayed like that from 1989 to 2009.

Phased-in approaches are sometimes another way to delay pay equity, so I would be very worried about that.

7:20 p.m.

Anne Levesque Co-chair, National Steering Committee, National Association of Women and the Law

I would just add that the phased-in approach is incremental equality. We know that action is needed now to eradicate the discrimination. It's unlawful conduct not to take those measures right away. When we know that someone is in non-compliance in terms of the law, we need to act immediately.

The incremental approach, which focuses firstly on the public sector, leaves behind the most vulnerable women and leaves them to continue to experience discrimination. It's not acceptable. It's not in compliance with the law. It's not in accordance with our international obligations or the charter.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Thank you very much.

Do I still have time, Madam Chair?

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

You have five seconds. Sorry.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Ladies, thank you very much for all your answers. I very much appreciate it.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

That ends this round.

Thank you very much for your patience.

with the votes that happened.

We will be suspending for a couple of minutes while we change panels, but don't anybody go very far, because we're going to start very shortly. Thank you.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

I call the meeting to order. Thank you very much.

I particularly want to thank our witnesses who have been waiting. Thank you for being here.

I will propose what we'll do, given that we lost time because of the vote. We have this room and the video conference until 9:30 p.m. However, it was expected that we would end at 8:30 p.m. What we could do is have each of the four remaining witnesses do their 10-minute presentations in a row, which would be 40 minutes, then we'll do our first round of questions, which would be approximately half an hour, which would take us to about 8:30 p.m. Then if there are remaining questions, we won't go in order, we'll just allow anyone who has a question three to five minutes to ask, and once there are no more questions, we will adjourn.

Does that sound reasonable to the committee?

7:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

Thank you very much.

We have with us, from the Ontario Pay Equity Commission, here in person, Emanuela Heyninck, commissioner. We also have, on video conference from London, Ontario, from the Business and Professional Women's Clubs of Ontario, Linda Davis, who is past-president. We have as an individual Mr. Paul Durber, consultant with Opus Mundi Canada. On video conference from Montreal, as an individual, we have Madam Chicha.

Welcome back, Madam Chicha. I know that you've tried this once before. It was the other day when we had votes, and we appreciate your patience.

Madam Chicha is a former member of the pay equity task force and a professor in the school of industrial relations, Université de Montréal.

Welcome, Ms. Chicha.

7:30 p.m.

Prof. Marie-Thérèse Chicha Former Member, Pay Equity Task Force and, Professor, School of Industrial Relations, University of Montreal, As an Individual

Thank you.

7:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

We will start with 10-minute presentations and we will start with Ms. Heyninck.

May 4th, 2016 / 7:30 p.m.

Emanuela Heyninck Commissioner, Ontario Pay Equity Commission

Thank you.

I've been listening very carefully to all of your questions. I think I would like to tell you about the Ontario Pay Equity Commission, though, and our work in the last, say, 10 years. We are the oldest of the jurisdictions that have implemented pay equity, and we have a lot of learning because we were first out of the block for a long time.

Just very quickly, the commission is an independent agency of the government established by the Pay Equity Act. It's accountable to the legislature through the Ministry of Labour. We have two separate parts that operate independently, the pay equity office and the pay hearings tribunal.

The office is responsible for enforcement. Our review officers are required to investigate, attempt to settle, and resolve complaints and objections to plans, as well as to monitor the implementation and maintenance of pay equity in workplaces. They have the authority to resolve all pay equity issues by order or decision. The office provides a number of tools and interactive material for employers and employees and unions to understand how to do pay equity. Finally, the office has legislative authority to conduct research and disseminate information about any aspect of pay equity and related subjects. That's the office.

The tribunal is responsible for adjudicating disputes that arise under the act on a de novo basis, but parties must bring their disputes first to our office for investigation before accessing the tribunal process. The tribunal has exclusive jurisdiction to determine all questions of fact or law, and their decisions are final for our purposes, certainly, as the enforcement body.

All Ontario private sector employers with 10 or more employees and all public sector employers must undertake a pay equity analysis, and that analysis process is very well defined in the act, and I think it is the basis for the task force report actually in 2004. There is a process to trigger investigations for non-compliance, but the requirement for employers to have pay equity in their workplaces and to ensure that it is maintained is not complaint-based, as you probably know.

The majority of our work now and for quite some time has really been monitoring employers for compliance with the act. We call it monitoring. Some people might call it auditing, but for our purposes it's monitoring. We run a number of programs that have had different focuses and different ways of engaging employers in this process. We ran a service industry monitoring program between 2007 and 2010, covering, for instance, hotel, motel, retail, and food and beverage industries. Over that time we contacted over 4,000 employers and actually monitored about 1,000 of them to assist them in coming into compliance.

We ran a very unique program in 2011, which we called the wage gap pilot project. That was an exercise in outreach and awareness and an opportunity to broaden the dialogue, not just focusing on pay equity but actually introducing the concept of a gender wage gap. In that program we had a return rate of 81% for the employers that we contacted on a voluntary basis. We asked them for some basic compensation data, we ran some tests, and we did an analysis to see if they showed patterns of compensation that likely would lead us to think that they might not have compliance. We found in that pilot that about 54% of responders did have what we called an apparent wage gap. We then used that to focus our monitoring activities. They were advised if they participated that it could be a likely possibility, and we then started monitoring them.

Also, in 2014 we monitored the classified government agencies for compliance. The 2015 program was an outreach in pay equity awareness program where we sent letters to 14,000 new businesses basically to make them aware of their obligations and to make them aware of all of the tools that we had available for them to assist themselves in coming into compliance and also alerting them to the possibility of being monitored. We're now in the process of starting to monitor those employers as well.

We've gotten a little better at measuring our outcomes as well. We're starting to report on adjustments that we have found to be owing in these monitoring activities. Over the course of the last about four years we have, through our direct intervention, found about $20 million in adjustments owing, over a variety of businesses, as you know.

Those are only the results of our direct involvement. We regularly see announcements in the newspaper that report on pay equity achievements through negotiations between unions and employers. A lot of those negotiations do not trigger our office's involvement, so we have no way of collecting that kind of data unfortunately.

Anecdotally we know that because of our extensive outreach programs now and these letters that are going out reminding employers about their obligations, we have seen and heard that there has been a lot of pay equity activity that has been going on where employers are realizing that, oops, I may have let this slide, and they've come into compliance.

Among our other activities we have consolidated all of our learning material and we now have a guide to interpreting the act, which is on the website and has been widely circulated. As I said, we have a number of web-based interactive tools that allow employers of pretty much any size to go in and put their own data through an interactive process and come up with what they should be doing in terms of pay equity.

We've also partnered with other organizations to provide training material. The most recent one has been a partnership with the Human Resources Professionals Association and York University. The HRPA is now offering a certificate program for pay equity. I was told yesterday that it's their second most popular program, so I think there's a lot of uptake on that.

We also try to disseminate information about pay equity through the various ministries if we have the ability to do so.

Lastly, we've established a gender wage gap grant program. We encourage research around pay equity and related topics.

Those are the activities that we have engaged in knowing that our act is at a very different stage from everyone else's, except for Quebec. We're both now heavily into the maintenance stage. I heard some of your questions so I'm sure you're going to address some of those questions to me. I would say that our act has not been amended since 1993 and if I were to give you some advice I would say that thinking about some kind of reporting system would be a very valuable thing to do.

I did have the opportunity to revisit the 2004 task force report in preparation for coming here. It is probably the most comprehensive piece of work on pay equity that exists anywhere, probably in the world I think. As you've heard tonight, it has covered most of the difficult pieces in terms of maintenance, involvement with the unions, some kind of reporting structure. It is a really great starting point.